Sword-on-Sword contact.

[arnisador]

Some technical points on combat blade fighting for those practicing and researching (and insight on why Pekiti-Tirsia has gained the position it has). For the long blade/sword, authentic Filipino methods, as in Pekiti-Tirsia, instruct how to prevent blade to blade contact except in the most unavoidable scenarios/positions. As Grand Tuhon teaches, when one gains true combined proficiency in footwork and striking, you will never need Four-Wall or Payong counter-offense techniques (contact blade to blade/strike to strike) in combat. If you are training with continual contact of the long blade/sword you should seriously question your training and instructor. Additionally, the advanced Contradas system specifically teaches how to target the weapon hand only - blade to blade at close-quarters. FMA combat blade fighting skill is demonstrated by NOT allowing contact to your blade and attacking directly to the weapon hand at close-quarters and long range. There are times when contact is unavoidable and must be made, but there are again specific methods/techniques that minimize blade to blade contact.


I made a new thread for this because these are great ponts. Movies leave people with exactly the wrong impression regarding swordwork. Why hit sword-on-sword when you can get in a cut/stab? It's a matter of mindset!

Similar ideas were discussed in this thread (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=795) (and the MT thread which spawned it, which contains an excellent post on similar ideas as the above but in iaido).

[Sun_Helmet]

I made a new thread for this because these are great ponts. Movies leave people with exactly the wrong impression regarding swordwork. Why hit sword-on-sword when you can get in a cut/stab? It's a matter of mindset!

Similar ideas were discussed in this thread (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=795) (and the MT thread which spawned it, which contains an excellent post on similar ideas as the above but in iaido).

As someone on the linked thread points out, this concept is true for many sword systems, not exactly FMA. Musashi has written on the subject of non sword contact and numerous fencing manuals have also touched on this subject.

Movie choreography keeps the non sword contact at a minimum to effectively "sell" the moment when the hero uses no contact to make the killshot.

--Rafael--

[Matt Lim]

Sword-on-Sword contact.

To prevent from being cut I guess.

[arnisador]

To prevent from being cut I guess.

There's no doubt that sometimes you must do it...but I think many people overemphasize it in their training. It's as in JKD...blocking is the least desirable way to handle the situation.

[Matt Lim]

I think some people are using weapon to weapon "blocking" to be able to apply techniques in "full" speed or power without hurting their training partners. Others use it just in the beginning level and progresses to direct controlled hitting to the hand, arm, or body. That way the trainees learn range/distance awareness and control. One cannot usually desire a way to handle an actual situation, you use what can be used... if you can.

[Brock]

Fencing has also influenced this type of training, or presentation of blade arts. When you're using weapons that have no edge you don't really think about how notched and ruined the edge would be if you bang them together that way.

[JohnJ]

Keep in mind that the flat and spine of the long blades are used as well. And can easily nullify full power & full speed attacks. However, in sword play timing, economy of motion and placement is essential NOT power & speed necessarily.

[408kali]

I wouldn't be so much worried about my sword as my neck. I could care less how chipped my blade might be as long as I'm intact. On the other hand, I agree with attacking the weapon hand(s) and/or a stab/slice to those exposed areas. If you survive in one piece, and your opponent is dismantled, then your objective has been met. ..but that's just my .2 pesos..

[JohnJ]

If only we could all be that good to avoid any contact. In the real world, there are measures that will require some contact to avoid further contact. It just depends on how much contact.

[equilibrium]

The worse your footwork is, and the more "modern" your training is, the more you need to resort to the beginner last ditch method of blade on blade CYA.

[arnisador]

Footwork is definitely key to being able to fight on your terms, not your opponent's.

[equilibrium]

Hold the presses.. gosh I guess we are all wrong about blade to blade contact.. has anyone seen the new cold steel DVD with the Barong demo with Ron Balicki... wow..they look like a couple of kids banging tree branches together... they even can twirl their weapons for no reason. Amazing!

If you are attacked by a naked chicken, that big fat barong could CUT HIM IN HALF!!

[PG Michael B]

Truth be told there is only one way to guarantee no blade on blade contact....AMBUSH! It is IMHO a true way and one that works...when in doubt go ugly early and win.

In BaHad Zu'Bu there is no weapon to weapon blocking within the syllabus. As Tatang said "My weapon is for your body, not your weapon".

[Silence_sucks]

Perhaps im not getting this thread properly, i agree that blade work is definatly not about swash buckling and classic *ting* *ting* blade contact but what about saftey checking with a second weapon or if you are going to the zero pressure point with an inside deflection or wing? Sure with a bladed weapon striving to stay in largo mano range is the go but does not mean there is never a situation where using your blade to check another weapon is not a good idea.

So far as blade notching is concerned i always turn my wrist with my checking weapon while training abecidario, i figure perfect practice makes perfect.

[arnisador]

No argument that there are times when you must cross swords! My point in starting this thread (and this thread (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=795)) was that too many people seem to think that that's the standard thing to do, whereas I think that the ideal is to cut him before his weapon is drawn; next, as it's being drawn; next, to fake him out/use footwork so you get your cut in without having to engage his drawn weapon; next, to deflect the weapon enough to get in your cut; next, to actually block then have to respond. All but the last are a single beat or, with the deflection, possibly a beat-and-a-half, while the last is a beat-beat technique. You lose the driver's seat position!

So yes, block when you must but don't let yourself get trapped in the mindset that says "A strike is coming in, hence I must block." We know better than that in the FMA--at the least, we often "block" by cutting/striking the arm/hand--but it's easy to fall into the trap of mimicking what's seen in movies or thinking that the constant stick-to-stick contact of a sinawali is a preferred way of handling incoming strikes.

[puntadas]

the less contact the better! some guys really stink...

[Silence_sucks]

Ah that makes it much more clear! just like the heirachy of defence right?
Intercetption then simultaneous attack and defence then covers and then finaly blocks.

[arnisador]

Yes, my point exactly! For some reason, it seems to me, people who do that empty-hand all too often fall back on blocking with swords, possibly because the consequences of being hit are so severe. That's fine, but one should still remember that the same type of heirarchy applies!

[oosh]

As Tatang said - “Dakong insulto kun masagang ang akong bunal”

"It would be a humiliating insult if someone can block my strike"

[arnisador]

"It would be a humiliating insult if someone can block my strike"


I love that quote! I hadn't heard it before.

[Brian R. VanCise]

As Tatang said - “Dakong insulto kun masagang ang akong bunal”

"It would be a humiliating insult if someone can block my strike"


That is nice!

[HANGAWAY]

my instructor Dominador Ferrer of kalantiaw defense any kind of strike the opponent deliver just strike the weapon hand and fight is over. Thats very true if you are using a bladed weapon whatever direction the opponent strike is coming the path of the strike will be redirected if you strike the weapon hand. Even better if you back up to avoid the attack while at the same time your blade is connecting to his attacking arm. Not just connecting your striking it. We just use padded sticks when practicing it cause it damn hurts even with padded stick

[GrandTuhon Leo T Gaje Jr]

There are two princples in blade fighting:

A. Weapon contact

This weapon contact is executed while on medium range . it serves as a guide to enter to close range. But there are two types of contact, one is the deflection going outside upon contact and the second is the diffusion going towards the neck or body.

Don't use the sharp edged to contact another edged use the flat side of the blade. The blade must originate from the top load position dropping to the incoming blade in full gravitational force. This moment of force will instantly change the direction of the opponents blade giving an opening for a slash or speed thrust to the throat.

B. Non-weapon contact

Non-weapon contact is the accurate calculation in releasing the diagonal slash slightly opposite to the incoming diagonal slash doubling the speed of the incoming slash that will accurately hit the wrist or the inside right arm if right handed. This is an avoidance to make contacts with the other blade . This executed on long range to long range. At the point of releasing the counter slash take a step 45 degrees to the right and if he is left handed take a 45 degrees left. Occupy the space at the center leaving no space for the opponent to move since the medium area is filled with multiple slash and thurst, that movement by the opponent to raise or change his blade is impossible. This is a mjor function in our Capsula Methodica.

C. An intention to penetrate from Long to Medium range to Close range is subject to the technical control of the weapon, technical control means the strength in holding the blade, how the blade is tempered, weight of the blade, length of the blade, how much time did you master your own blade, what power development to make your blade contact powerful that upon contact the other will break or fall from the hands of the opponent.

D. As a blade fighter, you tighten your Balls with a string so that you will never falter during encounter, you don't shock on the first sight of the glitering ginunting or talibong.

E. Practice like a Mad pitbull if your heart is weak don't ever talk about blade fighting. Meaning you must have a killers Instinct

On the principles of Thrust to Thrust:

Is it advisable to use deflection or diffusion process in the case of a foil or thin and semi rounded sword.Yes it is still acceptable in some cases but not all the time . The timing to enter is subject to speed , timing , accuracy and precision. Foot work strategy is important.

Still consider the ranges . This method of fighting mobility is the key to win.

By : Gt Gaje

[arnisador]

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin