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View Full Version : How Was PTK Selected to Teach the Police and RP Spec. Forces?



khd29
03-17-2007, 05:12 PM
I am new to FMA so please bear with me. I saw a BBC news clip about PTK and how it was the system used to train the police and military unit of the Philippines. I always thought, Arnis/Escrima/Kali or whatever you want to call it, are all the same. Just like how judo is judo wherever you go around the world. However, some forums swear by the differences in FMA and claim "legitimate street art". I don't believe in that nonsense because the art is only as good as the practitioner. RexKnowDo can be be the baddest art but Napoleon Dynamite will not make it work, right? A bit of a stretch but you get my point.

How was this system selected over other organizations? I thought after what the late GM Remy Presas did for the art, his organization would be the selected system, just like what Jigoro Kano did for judo. Also, IIRC, there are other bigger organizations but PTK was selected by the government. This is the only other organization I heard of beside Doce Pares. I only heard about Sayoc and Atienza recently, but I believe they are US based. Lots of them here in NYC.

If my history is inaccurate, please correct me. There are so many organizations and styles but are there any real clear cut differences?

Thanks,
Rookie

Epa
03-18-2007, 01:23 PM
Judo is a specific style of Japanese martial arts and can't be compared with generic terms like Arnis/Eskrima/Kali. Saying that all FMAs are the same is like saying all styles of Kung Fu are the same, it just doesn't make sense. Different styles use different types of weapons (or no weapons), fight in different ranges and employ different tactics. If you want to learn more about the different styles, check out the style specific forums.

I don't know all of the military or law enforcement groups that Pekiti-Tirsia trains, but I know they were selected to train the Filipino Recon Marines. My understanding was that the marines were taking too many casualties from close quarters edged weapon attacks when they were fighting insurgents in Mindanao. Their men didn't have sufficient training to deal with edged weapons and they were being ambushed in terrain where it was difficult for them to use their firearms effectively.

To fix the problem, the marines adopted a model based on World War 2 guerilla units where the fighters relied on bolos at close range and used the firearms for back ups in overgrown terrain. In order to make this work, they needed a sword system. I think they put out the word with different FMA groups and had them audition. They selected Pekiti-Tirsia as the marines' trainers.

I don't think it was any disrespect for the other groups, they just picked the method they thought fit their needs the best. I'm sure there are instructors from Modern Arnis, Doce Pares, Sayoc, Atienza and other styles that train military and law enforcement as well. There is a pretty high demand for practical stick and knife material in those communities.

arnisador
03-18-2007, 11:36 PM
Definitely, lots of groups representing many different styles of the FMA teach various LEO and military groups there.

JohnJ
03-29-2007, 12:59 PM
Keep in mind that only a percentage of claims are legit in terms of approved program. In other words, many claim to teach LEO/Military but in essence are teaching a handful of martial arts entrhusiasts who happen to be in that profession. Others have taught on a seminar basis for divisions of the military but not as a whole. This is a common practice.

Tuhon Gaje is one who has been able to prove himself and his art worthy to teach on a consistent basis an approved program. I assume his network helped in achieving this as well.

408kali
03-29-2007, 04:17 PM
I love to hear that there are FMAers teaching military, police, or swat.

I would love to have the opportunity to do that someday..

Tim Waid
04-02-2007, 03:03 AM
Three important distinctions to answer the initial question - How Was PTK Selected to Teach the Police and RP Spec. Forces?

First, as Guro John Jacobo correctly stated, many claim to teach Special Forces, SWAT, or any number of military or law enforcement units, when in fact they have instructed individual members of a unit or conducted a seminar program for a unit. Nothing wrong with that, because many don’t realize that as Commanding Officers change in military units (average of every two years), the new commander wants “new” or advanced training based upon his unit needs (and personal preferences many times). The same with law enforcement, new Chiefs and Training Division Commanders usually look to change the current training and make their own mark.

More significantly though, a few military and law enforcement units formally adopt a system of training that is institutionalized for years, as Pekiti-Tirsia has with the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) and the Philippine National Police (PNP). Why? Because it has consistently proven it’s superiority to unit commanders and against the best martial arts, Close Quarters Combat (CQC), and Defensive Tactics (DT) systems that Philippine and other US and foreign units have challenged it against.

The second and third points are historical and technical. Pekiti-Tirsia currently has the longest formally approved and institutionalized CQC and DT programs in the AFP and PNP. In June 1998,Major General Ponciano S. Millena, Commandant of the Philippine Marine Corps, recognized the Pekiti-Tirsia system as the official Close Quarters Combat/CQC system and doctrine of the Philippine Marine Corps. January through June 1998 I conducted the first Pekiti-Tirsia/CQC Instructors Qualification Course for the Force Reconnaissance Battalion of the Philippine Marine Corps. Prior to that time, for almost three years, the Recon Battalionresearched the different Filipino combat systems/martial arts being practiced in the Philippines to specifically find the knowledge of Bladed weapons combat. The Recon Marines completed several combat skills courses and interviewed numerous instructors, including those of the prominent styles/systems/clubs in the Philippines, but found none that taught combat with the live blade and that could teach a system to special operations forces applicable to their operational environment and requirements.After one interview and demonstration with the commanding officer and staff, I had a contract to begin training. I simply demonstrated the system of Pekiti-Tirsia, as taught to me by Grand Tuhon Gaje, and immediately used my live Ginunting to make my point. The CO also saw the distinction and effectiveness of an authentic Filipino Bladefighting Combat system from the current “styles” created as the newest, latest, and greatest.

Today, the Recon Marines are recognized as the leaders and subject matter experts (SME) in the use of Edged-Impact Weapon Strategy and Tactics within the AFP and have continually proven the superiority of the Pekiti-Tirsia system against other military CQC methods including the US Marine Corps Martial Art Program (MCMAP), SCARS method of US Navy SEALS, the LINE method of US Army Special Forces, and the current US Army Combatives program. Subsequently, the PMCTrainingCenter instituted the system as a special school and is now instructed to all Philippine Marines at several unit levels.

Most importantly, Recon has been using the skills of Pekiti-Tirsia to engage and kill terrorists in the Southern Philippines, continuing to validate the system and training in real combat. No other FMA can make this claim.

Our longest standing program within the PNP is with the Special Action Force (SAF). Since year 2000 we have had a certified SAF instructor cadre that trains all new SAF members. The SAF has also proven Pekiti-Tirsia against other PNP and foreign units systems including the Australian SAS and Australian Federal Air Marshals, to name a few.

I am not going to be politically correct and agree that there are other FMA actively training AFP/PNP in any significant manner because they do not. Modern Arnis and Doce Pares do have active sport competition clubs, and there are individual instructors present in units that teach, but none that have any national recognition. The masters of self promotion, the Sayoc’s and Atienza’s, don’t have a presence in the Philippines, or any recognizable training programs within military/LE.

The history of Grand Tuhon Gaje and Pekiti-Tirsia tactical training is well known and documented. He was the first to institute a recognized FMA based Defensive Tactics system in law enforcement beginning with the NYPD in the late 70’s, and gained continued international recognition through the video Surviving Edged Weapons. Tuhon Gaje remains in great demand and continues to train and influence military units and law enforcement agencies worldwide. Documented fact, Pekiti-Tirsia is the FMA leader in military and law enforcement tactical training.

Some technical points on combat blade fighting for those practicing and researching (and insight on why Pekiti-Tirsia has gained the position it has). For the long blade/sword, authentic Filipino methods, as in Pekiti-Tirsia, instruct how to prevent blade to blade contact except in the most unavoidable scenarios/positions. As Grand Tuhon teaches, when one gains true combined proficiency in footwork and striking, you will never need Four-Wall or Payong counter-offense techniques (contact blade to blade/strike to strike) in combat. If you are training with continual contact of the long blade/sword you should seriously question your training and instructor. Additionally, the advanced Contradas system specifically teaches how to target the weapon hand only - blade to blade at close-quarters. FMA combat blade fighting skill is demonstrated by NOT allowing contact to your blade and attacking directly to the weapon hand at close-quarters and long range. There are times when contact is unavoidable and must be made, but there are again specific methods/techniques that minimize blade to blade contact.

The same for the Knife. Pekiti-Tirsia knife-tapping has been adopted (and copied) by scores and generations of instructors but few, if any, understand the true application. Tapping is a close-quarters counter-offense method that is to be avoided unless the result of a closing attack (not that easy to accomplish with the short blade). Again, the absence of tapping is the indicator of skill, not the continued back and forth tapping and tapping of mindless made-up drills while the “masters” stand in front of each other (and never deliver a powerful attack). If the knife fighting or training you are learning is based upon tapping and or “feeding” (a term never used in Pekiti) you are in the wrong place. As Tuhon Gaje teaches “Timing is to attack off time of your opponents attack”, and he will hit you, repeatedly, well before you move to strike or tap.

Zeph
04-03-2007, 02:20 AM
Hello Maginoo Tim,

Nice to see you around! And thank you so much for your input.

Epa
04-03-2007, 10:41 AM
Thanks for the clarification Maginoo Tim. It's always good to hear from someone who was actually there.

Sun_Helmet
04-03-2007, 01:20 PM
I am not going to be politically correct and agree that there are other FMA actively training AFP/PNP in any significant manner because they do not. Modern Arnis and Doce Pares do have active sport competition clubs, and there are individual instructors present in units that teach, but none that have any national recognition. The masters of self promotion, the Sayoc’s and Atienza’s, don’t have a presence in the Philippines, or any recognizable training programs within military/LE.



Hello Mr. Waid,

It is true that the Sayocs do NOT have a contract nor train military in the Philippines.

We support PTK and most importantly GT Gaje's efforts in this area. Tuhon Sayoc has never spoken ill of him. He asked me to pay my respects to him when he was in Maryland a few years ago with Manong Dan Inosanto, and asked many of our students to attend that seminar since it was one of the first in his return to public instruction in the US. I know the recently passed Tatang Bo Sayoc thought of him as a friend.

However, I'd like to point out that although Sayoc is not in Philippines, the Sayoc Tactical Group does have military contracts with several military agencies in the US.

We have not "self promoted" the specifics of these APPROVED contracts, as much as how it would greatly benefit us in the public arena. I'll see if one of our STG reps will be willing to disclose info about such matters.

On the commentary on the CONTINUOUS tapping, the Sayoc tapping drills in particular (can't speak for anyone else) have a different purpose than what you've stated.

As for calling us the MASTERS of self promotion, to us - maintaining a positive and productive influence on the FMA is our goal.

As a student of history, especially FILIPINO history, I've learned that our worst enemy is the tendency to DIVIDE instead of uplift one another.

Much success to you and your efforts in PTK.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

sneaky
04-04-2007, 08:11 AM
Hi Tim,

As former member of the ADF I must say I am most interested as to your comments about the Australian SASR and Airmarshalls, knife combatives figures rather lowly on the priorities list for both groups as the gun will win more often against the knife.

The USMC MACE uses knife skills as taught by Hunter Armstrong of Hopology and its aim is to kill enemies not to get into knife duels with tapping etc. so your claim is of rather limited value in my opinion, knife on knife is of such a low probability that it really falls into the scope of "interesting sideline" in SF training , dont get me wrong I teach knife, knife on knife too and have nothing but respect for PTK, but lets be realistic about knife combatives and its place in the arsenal of todays soldier.

All the best,

Jim

Gilla
04-04-2007, 06:35 PM
Hopology, is that the use of hops and barley in CQC?
All i can say is that Tim Waid has extensive experence training the Military here and oversea's.Aso is Mr. Armstrong related to Stretch Armstrong? He is very well known here in the States.
Eddie

PG Michael B
04-04-2007, 09:40 PM
Hoplology is a science that studies human combative behavior and performance. The word hoplology is derived from the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) terms hoplos (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hoplos&action=edit) (a mythical plate-armored animal) and hoplite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite), the term for the classical Greek warrior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior). The word was first coined by the explorer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_explorers) and linguist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguist), Sir Richard Burton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Francis_Burton), in the 19th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_century), but it was not until the 1960s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960s) when hoplology began taking shape as an academic field of study under the direction of Donn F. Draeger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn_F._Draeger).

www.hoplology.com (http://www.hoplology.com)


http://www.okinawa.usmc.mil/Public%20Affairs%20Info/Archive%20News%20Pages/2004/040723-mcmap.html

You are correct Tim Waid is a top notch teacher/practitioner of PTK..I have studied with him in the past, but there is more than one way to skin a cat wouldn't you agree?

sneaky
04-05-2007, 06:31 AM
Hi All,

I am not trying to make light of the skills of the SAF and think its great they get good training , I am interested to know however if it doesnt create any OPSEC/PERSEC issues about how much the blade skills of the SAF are being used in combat in the southern PI s ? I would wager that firearms are being used at least 100 to 1 over edged weapons , I would also add that if the SAF demonstrated their better knife skills against the Australian SASR that it needs to be kept in context, the main knife skill taught to arms corp units in the ADF is sentry removal on CQF courses not duelling, the ADFs response to duelling is the M4 or F88 styer rifle .

I believe that knife training has a real purpose for todays soldier on peace keeping missions etc where you dont always know whos who amoungst the local populance and trouble may find you doing VCP duty or in a bar when off duty when not armed with your primary weapon system but I believe that good empty hand is the first line of defense.

All the best,

Jim

arnisador
04-05-2007, 08:43 AM
All good points...I also wonder if, as with the pugil stick/bayonet in the U.S. military, an important reason for the training is to build an aggressive attitude. That's better done in a close-in context, even if the fighting will likely be done at a greater distance.

truth_be_told
04-05-2007, 09:34 AM
Mr Tim Wade,

in your posting u bring to point that

A) Pekiti Tirsia Edge Weaponries SUPERIOR/BEATS same programs of

i) US Marine Corps Martial Art Program (MCMAP),
ii) SCARS method of US Navy SEALS,
iii) the LINE method of US Army Special Forces,
iv) current US Army Combatives program.
v) Australian SAS
vi) Australian Federal Air Marshals

Please provide evidence of the above mouthful.

… is this via some padded sports stick/trainer blade events or war simulation or what ?

Please show evidence of
i) Who were the contenders and background ?
ii) Where was this proven ?
iii) What give rise to these conclusion ? What environment, weapon etc used ? What were the rules of engagement ?
iv) How was this determined ?
v) Why were those bodies involved and why were they not using PKT as their sole program today if it is Clearly a leader ?
Ta ..

Liveblade
04-05-2007, 03:37 PM
Maginoo Waid,

I don't know why you feel so strong in the negative about the Sayoc or Atienza systems as we are all brothers in the FMA community. I just want to say that I have always looked at PTK as a highly effective Blade art and I have always been proud to be involved in FMA's, because of the reality and seriousness of technique found in FMA in general and especially PTK.

But I would like to point out that as the Director for Sayoc Tactical Group, we have been contracted by various units of the US Navy and Army, to provide edged weapon training and CQC training. Also we have trained Government and local LEO's across the US.
With the Military we teach techniques of Close Quarter Blade killing and primary weapon retention using an edged weapon in a CQC environment. With LEO's it is Counter Edged Weapon stressing transition to firearm.
We really, as Jim stated, don't teach blade on blade. As we feel this is a low probability in combat. We also don't feel continuous tapping is possible in 99.99 of real life encounters nor is it beneficial. But that is really another thread.

In a final word I would like to invite you to attend as my guest any of the LEO or Military contract training at Ft Bragg, VA Beach or anywhere we are holding training.

Your Brother in FMA
Gumagalang,
Tom Kier
Sayoc Kali (http://sayoctactical.com/)
Sayoc Tactical (http://sayoctactical.com)

arnisador
04-05-2007, 09:16 PM
We also don't feel continuous tapping is possible in 99.99 of real life encounters nor is it beneficial.

How is the phrase 'continuous tapping' being used here? As in a drill where the live hand repeatedly stops a blade attack?

I'm sure many groups have trained various military units...I'm not sure how fruitful it is to debate it! The S. Korean army trains in Tae Kwon Do, which doesn't seem optimally practical to me.

lmanalo
04-05-2007, 11:25 PM
Greetings everyone,
This is one of my first posts here at FMATALK & just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Leo and I am an Atienza Kali practitioner. I’ve been studying with the Atienzas for over 14 years and am a full instructor in the system.
Gumagalang, Tuhon Raf and Tuhon Tom. As always great points made in your post.
Salutations, Tim. The Atienzas send their greetings as well.
I would like like to start by saying Atienzas have nothing but respect for PTK. My first experience with FMA was PTK under Mike Berkley back in 1991 before I met the Atienzas.

“For the long blade/sword, authentic Filipino methods, as in
Pekiti-Tirsia, instruct how to prevent blade to blade contact except in
the most unavoidable scenarios/positions.”

Atienza Kali agrees with you regarding this. Most of the exchanges that we have experienced are no-blade contact with the exception where deflections (not blocks) were necessary. i.e. being backed up with no room to maneuver. Those Atienza Kali practitioners that can use these techniques demonstrate excellent tracking of their opponents techniques.

Its really quite impressive to see the Atienza Chiefs execute such techniques...Atienza Kali Blade Simulator DVD vol 1, has such footage, I believe they released it 3 years ago.


“There are times when contact is unavoidable and must be made, but there are again specific methods/techniques that minimize blade to blade contact.”
Agreed...especially in mass attack in small confines.

I look forward to more open discussions regarding blade techniques.

Respectfully,
Leo M.
Atienza Kali

Tim Waid
04-09-2007, 01:33 AM
Continued commentary on Military/Law Enforcement training:

The Special Action Force (SAF) of the Philippine National Police (PNP) is a paramilitary unit with the same TO&E as a regular light infantry battalion, and continues in a limited scale the same type of operations as the old Philippine Constabulary (PC). During the mid-nineties when I was living in Bacolod City, the SAF replaced the Philippine Army on Negros Island and continued security and counter-insurgency operations against the remaining active Communist NPA units. Grand Tuhon and I began training the SAF at this time in both Negros and at the SAF Hq. in Manila. During this time and until now there have been several training/assistance programs and joint exercises with the Australian SASR. The SAS used what was clearly a Japanese/Okinawan based Karate style for combatives instruction. Long story short, they could not deal with the knife and several types of bolos that some SAF members carried and demonstrated, and, they readily admitted this. As these joint training operations go, both sides had specific recognized tactical proficiencies and learned from each other. And, as I stated earlier, I am sure their (SAS) combatives system/training has and continues to change.

Two years ago, the Australian equivalent (exact name I don’t recall) to the US Federal Air Marshals conducted a tactical training course for the Philippine Air Marshal program. Rommel Tortal, Grand Tuhon’s nephew (PTK’s principal instructor in the Philippines now), was invited to conduct an Edged Weapons tactics seminar during the course. The Australian cadre lacked tactics to deal with a dynamic edged weapon attack at extreme close-quarters in the aircraft (except shooting) and any skill set with the knife as a backup weapon. Again, the training cadre recognized the skills taught through PTK and participated in the training as well, which they did not have to.

For the past ten years (and continuing now) Pekiti-Tirsia has instructed Philippine AFP (Scout Rangers, Navy SWAG, Army SF, for example), PNP (Aviation Security Command Special Operations, PNP Public Safety College, PNP Academy, for example) and US (any number of the USMC expeditionary force units and Army and Navy special operations units) and other foreign allied units too numerous to be counted. Some have directly challenged GT Gaje with empty-hands, with one Marine (over 200 lbs.) yelling for the corpsman (medic) afterwards. The significant fact is in spite of the continuing change of command within the Philippine Marine Corps, Pekiti-Tirsia remains. The Philippine Marine Corps, with the Force Recon Bn. Instructor cadre leading, continues as the flagship.

On the knife vs. gun/firearms comment, I have run thousands of military and law enforcement students through infantry/CQB training, including with Simunitions/FX, where firearms consistently lose to the knife. This depends upon the range, if the rifle is at the point or at the ready, if the handgun is at the point, ready, or holstered, and the number of operators/officers. During room clearing, I have taken out the 1st and 2nd man with the knife, again depending upon how well/fast they move, and sometimes the 3rd man, before being shot by the third or fourth operator. For LE patrol officers, and anyone in urban operations including armed civilians (God Bless Texas), the distance drill needs to be trained over and over. The knife learns how to close, draw and strike. And the gun learns how to move, draw and fire, and use other close-quarters tactics. You are developing critical skills with either weapon. I suggest viewing Surviving Edged Weapons.

WWII in the Philippines saw the most prolific (more than any other theatre of the war) and effective use of the short Sword/Bolo. The Bolo was used by guerrilla units (throughout the entire islands), regular infantry (First and Second Filipino Regiments) and special operations (AIB Reconnaissance/Communications units and others). The Filipinos (and some Americans) used the Bolo, with and without firearms, against fully equipped Japanese infantry/combat arms units in close combat and won. All of these units trained Blade to Blade drills in full combat gear. Who says that this is not an effective training method? The reason why this training remains “in the scope of interesting sideline in SF training” is because (1) they lack the historical insight and (2) few instructors can integrate it properly with infantry/CQB tactics. Blade to Blade training gives you closing and attacking skills (and confidence) against the use of any weapon at close-quarters. Common western military instruction of the knife for direct attacks to fatal targets areas is effective of course (I trained this as a Marine myself), but provides no dynamic force on force skills and negligible psychological edge or advantage.


Rafael and Tom,

These forums are for education and critical discussion, and my comments should not be taken personally. I simply do not believe in any FMA system/style/instructor that promotes “new, modern, evolved, progressive, improved, innovative, blade concepts, etc, etc.” Centuries of blade to blade combat in the Philippines (and around the world I might add) has discovered every possible use and application of the edged (and impact) weapon. Unfortunately, few of these systems with this complete knowledge remain. Fortunately, Pekiti-Tirsia is one of them. I have 19 years with Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje, have continually trained and researched the FMA in the Philippines for the past 23 years, including eight years of residency, and have interfaced with the majority of the system/styles in the public domain, as well as many obscure ones. I believe I am qualified in my position.

To provide a neutral and objective perspective, in 1987 I met GM Tatang Ilustrisimo with my father-in-law, a WWII Guerrilla Fighter in the USAFFE. During their conversation about their combat experiences and training, Tatang made the point that he could counter any attack. In other words, he knew the full capabilities of the human form attacking with the blade. Tatang would laugh at the notion of FMA as new, improved, etc, etc. Grandmaster Tony Diego will certainly verify this.

My comments on blade contact and tapping were not directed to any particular style/system. Unfortunately there are Pekiti-Tirsia instructors that teach these same incorrect methods as well. The training methods I described are, however, extremely prevalent in FMA training today and will not work against even a single dedicated attack. Every instructional period and seminar I teach I demonstrate these points, and then show the correct training method and application. As an instructor teaching lethal skills, I have a professional and ethical responsibility to do so.

Safe to say we all agree that the FMA provides the most realistic, practical, and pragmatic method of edged/impact/empty-hands combat. Ultimately, it is up to the student/consumer to decide on a source of instruction, and our dialogue here assists in that decision.

Regards,

Tim Waid

lhommedieu
04-09-2007, 11:07 AM
I would like like to start by saying Atienzas have nothing but respect for PTK. My first experience with FMA was PTK under Mike Berkley back in 1991 before I met the Atienzas.

Leo,

I wonder if we've met? I started out in FMA's with Mike Berkeley and Agapito Gonzales from '94-'96 and eventually ended up training with Tom Bisio and Bill Schettino, respectively.

Best,

Steve Lamade

tanod
04-09-2007, 12:45 PM
ptk was selected because the commanding officer noticed that when it comes to blade the marines were ignorant. so he set out and searched for a bladed weapon art, and the commanding officer's friend suggested filipino martial arts namely PTK.

Gilla
04-09-2007, 05:14 PM
I don't know maybe we should all sit down and have a green tea low fat Chai latte and share a blueberry scone and talk this out. After all we all the same under the skin.
Eddie

PeteNerd
04-09-2007, 05:44 PM
I don't know maybe we should all sit down and have a green tea low fat Chai latte and share a blueberry scone and talk this out. After all we all the same under the skin.
Eddie

I'll have mine with soy, thanks,

Pete

Gilla
04-09-2007, 06:53 PM
Pete,
whats up?
Eddie

Matt Lim
04-10-2007, 12:59 AM
ptk was selected because the commanding officer noticed that when it comes to blade the marines were ignorant. so he set out and searched for a bladed weapon art, and the commanding officer's friend suggested filipino martial arts namely PTK.That sums it up.

truth_be_told
04-10-2007, 04:41 AM
Mr. Tim,
U haven't show any evidence of PTK is Superior/Beats

i) US Marine Corps Martial Art Program (MCMAP),
ii) SCARS method of US Navy SEALS,
iii) the LINE method of US Army Special Forces,
iv) current US Army Combatives program.
v) Australian SAS
vi) Australian Federal Air Marshals

U based your evidence for Australian SAS on :-

i) the PAST - during the mid-nineties time frame ??? exactly when ?

ii) u make conjecture and generalized statement that "The SAS used what was clearly a Japanese/Okinawan based Karate style for combatives instruction" How sure are you ?

iii) Based on one cadre ??
iv) in a joint training which is nothing more than a simulation drill ?


As for the Australian Federal Air Marshals :-

1) u based it on ONE Australian Cadre who "lacked tactics to deal with a dynamic edged weapon attack at extreme close-quarters ..., the training cadre recognized the skills taught through PTK"

Is'nt this a Generalized and Over-conjecture statement that PTK is better than those ?

What if i beat one PTK practitioner say in a stick competition ?
Can i say my system is Superior/Beats PTK or the PTK practitioner lacks tactics ?
OR perhaps i should join any FMA festivities to participate in any joint training and
if PTK folks dun do well here, can they all say they bested PTK ?

Also, you like to bold and highlight the past "WWII in the Philippines saw the most prolific (more than any other theatre of the war) and effective use of the short Sword/Bolo. The Bolo was used by guerrilla units (throughout the entire islands), regular infantry (First and Second Filipino Regiments) and special operations (AIB Reconnaissance/Communications units and others)."

BUT that WWII effective use of the short Sword/Bolo DOES NOT employ pekiti tirsia as their delivery system.
Back then those folks were Not taught PTK so how can PTK take credit for that ??

Folks from Bahala Na or Leo Giron camp or those whose living teachers had employed FMA in WWII can testify that it is Not PTK that sees the effective use of the short sword/bolo during WWII.
WHERE WAS PTK then ? Absorbing those FMAs that had proven itself during WWII ? LOL


IMHO, the above so called "Pekiti-Tirsia Military/LE programs and history" smacks of nothing more than pure Marketing & Advertising commentary with all this "Branding by association" and "Name droppings" of Military/LE bodies.

RayFloro
04-10-2007, 05:49 AM
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with Truth Be Told,

Tim,

I am currently the "Subject Matter Expert" (Edged Weapons) for the Australian Defence Force. In this role, I work in close association with the members of the Australian MUC Cell in developing a program for the Military.

As such, I have close friendship with members from all branches of the Aussie Military. This includes the Australian SASR and Australian Air Marshalls.

If you would be so kind to supply me with the names and contact details of those SF members that you liaised with, I can easily validate your story.

If you wish to validate my credentials. I am more than happy to email you my Resume which details all programs I am involved in, complete with contact details and emails of those in authority to confirm my accomplishments.

I am also a Kalis Ilustrisimo Instructor. Accredited directly by GM "Tatang" Ilustrisimo and GM Tony Diego. I trained with both of them directly, and one on one for many years.

For you to "quote" what Tatang or GM Diego "might" say is irresponsible and reckless. Especially since you only "met" them once.


As for your "opinions" of the Sayoc and Atienza group.

I have been fortunate enough to be able to spend time to train, spar, and break bread with most of their members.

ALL of them are highly skilled, generous, open minded and most of all OF GREAT CHARACTER.

They are true warriors in their art, and their INNOVATIVE APPROACH to their teaching, structure and analysis of the Filipino Warrior Art is what makes them LEADERS IN THEIR FIELD.

THE MOST Elite fighting units of the world TRUST THEIR LIVES with Sayoc and Atienza. THAT is testimony in itself.

If you doubt that, then try to get a CONTRACT with these same groups.

As I have found with the Australian Military, they are very careful, and protected to choose only the best.

So please provide us a list of your "Contracted" military work in the Western World.

Raymond Floro
Floro Fighting Systems
www.florofighting.com

arnisador
04-10-2007, 10:27 AM
I don't think we need to be exchanging lists. Many arts have something to offer the military, but only so many will be selected.

lmanalo
04-10-2007, 11:01 AM
Leo,

I wonder if we've met? I started out in FMA's with Mike Berkeley and Agapito Gonzales from '94-'96 and eventually ended up training with Tom Bisio and Bill Schettino, respectively.

Best,

Steve Lamade


Greetings Steve,
I don't know if we ever met. I started my FMA with Mike Berkeley but wasn't there during 94. I have had the please of meeting with Agapito recently during an AK/Sayoc seminar. Agapito also trains one of my own students (who is currently out of the country).
I still go to Tom Bisio for accupuncture & Eastern medicine work!

I hope your training is going well and hope that we are able to meet one day:)

Greetings Ray F.!
How's it going?!? we always hear great things when your name is mentioned here in the States. the Atienza brothers send you their well wishes. we hope to train all together soon.


Respectfully,
Leo M.
Atienza Kali

Gilla
04-10-2007, 08:24 PM
O.K. Mr. Floro its seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black both your site and the Sayoc site use name dropping everyone from navy seal's to Tommy Lee Jones have blurbs on on the sayoc site and you also use photo 's of the korean SF and others on your's. Maginoo Tim Waid just
tried to answer some questions on the reasons why PTK was selected by the Philipino Marines and he did so quite well I thought. Also the fact that your homeland trust's PTK to keep it's armed forces safe should be a good enough endorsement for anyone. Maybe it's just pinute envy. Now for Mr. Truth whats wrong? Did we run over your dog or steal some money from you , You seem very upset . Take a hot shower and drink a beer and you will feel much better. ( maybe a yoga class) But stop calling us we are just not interested.
Eddie

Sun_Helmet
04-10-2007, 09:24 PM
Safe to say we all agree that the FMA provides the most realistic, practical, and pragmatic method of edged/impact/empty-hands combat. Ultimately, it is up to the student/consumer to decide on a source of instruction, and our dialogue here assists in that decision.
Regards,

Tim Waid


Thanks for the reply Tim.

We've found that closing with a knife is dependent on scenario, individual experience and the unit's prior training. Many at the higher levels have been around the block, and are familiar with FMA, know about distancing and many other arts. They have seen what a knife can do and have used a knife before. Even their room clearing tactics differ and have evolved due to their real life experiences. Often at a rapid pace to adapt to the everchanging threats around them.

However, when we speak of evolution it also applies to this:

The Sayoc Tactical Group works to complement their training so that it fits seamlessly with the muscle memory they have acquired with their own tactics. That alone requires a different type of approach. Many different types of training modules.

Time and again, FMA instructors have found new ways to get their ideas across. To be able to communicate their tactics effectively. They have learned to counter anything that comes at them. It is result oriented.

That is evolution.
Evolution IS the FMA.

We're not talking about evolution as just new ways to killshot the universal vital targets of the human body. Nor are we talking about re-inventing the wheel.

Evolution is about finding every possible way to get the basic concepts ingrained into our students. We look at our students as part of one family, a united tribe part of the bigger tribe. Each one responds differently and has their own mind and intellect. Each one responds to a different methodology and personality.

Evolution is not about reliving the past, but about preserving its ideals so that its inherent values lasts well into the future.

The mere fact that we are exchanging posts ABOUT FMA in an FMA talk forum is evolution. :)

----
As for Filipinos in WW2, my uncle was a decorated soldier who began as a guerilla fighter in Negros. In fact, they wrote an article and a book of his exploits in the Philippines titled "The Unsung Hero of Negros". He helped establish the recon tactics with the natives of that region. He also made sure the women were not raped, and their homes not pillaged by bandits. He was buried with full military honors in Arlington cemetary several years ago with the rank of Lt. Colonel. That said, although he respected the FMA greatly, he favored applying the cunning, will and tactics of the Filipino warrior to acquire firearms to help defeat the modern weapons of the enemy of that time. When the men all showed up with blades in hand, he said that they needed to use those blades to get more guns. And that they did.

---

All in all, it is good to finally make some form of contact with you Tim.
To get beyond the surface and eventually flesh out matters which can simply be a matter of semantics and miscommunication.

Much success to you and PTK.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

Sun_Helmet
04-10-2007, 09:44 PM
...both your site and the Sayoc site use name dropping everyone from navy seal's to Tommy Lee Jones have blurbs on on the sayoc site ...
Eddie

The Navy SEAL on the blurb is an individual SAYOC instructor who also happens to be a retired SEAL.

This does not pertain to the premise that Mr. Waid was pointing out, which was that some instructors train individuals, and some have approved contracts. The above case is of an individual who happens to be a SEAL.
One of many who are Sayoc instructors.

Tommy Lee Jones is on our site because he's TOMMY LEE JONES! :D

It is very commendable that the Philippine Recon Marines are training in PTK.

Every achievement is worth "name dropping".

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

Matt Lim
04-10-2007, 09:52 PM
How Was PTK Sellected to Teach the Police and RP Spec. Forces?
Very few FMA group in RP would want to be associated with the Philippine military and police organization.

Why would the police and specops want to learn blade use?
Seems they're getting tired of using nylon, nails, and cement on their civilian opponents.

truth_be_told
04-11-2007, 02:47 AM
Mr GILLA eddie hunt & Mr Tim,

'Also the fact that your homeland trust's PTK to keep it's armed forces safe should be a good enough endorsement for anyone. Maybe it's just pinute envy.'

for whatever reasons PTK was selected had nothing to do with WWII prowess or whatsoever, just plain networking contacts.

i have no problem with PTK selection.

PTK can be selected by its own merit. Why Mr. Tim have to put others down without Facts or merit to promote PTK ? just looks at the choice of words - Self promo and all that and of course you don't have to go far to look at Gaje's opinions.


to run down other arts employ by other military/le bodies in the world show how much integrity PTK had.

to make such sweeping statements and generalization, u best back it up with FACTS.
else i might as well make up my own stories.

Ray,

You are truly an exemplary leader and master instructor. Ray does not have to put down others to promote himself. Neither does he make sweeping generalized statements.


fully support mr. ray floro who is open to share facts with anyone who ask.
unlike u and mr. tim,

Gilla/Tim have NO SUBSTANTIAL FACTs to back up your sweeping statement and running down of other arts.

much success to PTK ? good luck

lhommedieu
04-11-2007, 05:46 AM
Greetings Steve,
I don't know if we ever met. I started my FMA with Mike Berkeley but wasn't there during 94. I have had the please of meeting with Agapito recently during an AK/Sayoc seminar. Agapito also trains one of my own students (who is currently out of the country).

I still go to Tom Bisio for accupuncture & Eastern medicine work!

I hope your training is going well and hope that we are able to meet one day

Agapito is one of a kind! I just saw Tom yesterday. Hopefully we'll cross paths one of these days as I'm at his clinic from time to time. Best of luck for your continued martial arts success.

Steve

sneaky
04-11-2007, 07:05 AM
Hi All,

I think its best that all involved take a step back to reflect on what it is exactly that is being discussed here, no one is disputing PTKs training of the Filipino military or its effectiveness, I will go on the record here as I am sure Ray would that our only interest here is the comments Mr Waids scoring of points off the back of elite Australian forces whose operational record speaks for itself, I can appreciate Mr Waids points but dont happen to personally agree with the context in which they were presented, the knife is not an operational focus point for either of the units mentioned and why would it be? the firearm and munitions of today far outclass any blade there is and any system, ours , yours anyones, it just isnt a tool that the western world relies on for anything other than utility and PERHAPS sentry removal , the main interest of western forces is the defence against them .

I know that there are numerous documented cases of blades being used offensively in recent times but would add that if you look at the modern soldiers primary weapon systems you wont see a bolo or balisong guys, I can understand that in the PIs there is a blade culture and hence the interest but doubt that there would be more than a handfull of blade kills being made by the SAF each year , context is always the key in these discussions and that is my 2 cents.

All the best,

Jim

RayFloro
04-11-2007, 09:58 AM
Gilla,

You again, have completely missed the point.

Sayoc and FFS website is use to promote our own specific arts and we include the contents you mentioned because it is OUR own individual website.

It is NOT a public forum.

Also...where in my website have I spoken negatively, defamed or said FFS is better than any other system.

EVERYTHING on my website can be proved. I can give you names, emails and contact numbers of any of Military, LEO or private organisation you wish to confirm my involvement with.

As I said before, my PROFESSION is to assist in giving the best Edged Weapons program for the Australian Military.

Of course when I hear someone say that their training is grossly lacking; I need to interview these individuals so that I can develop measures to improve their "lack of training".

I have made initial inquiries with my contacts, and none have even heard of Tim Waid.

So a little assitance in finding the right people will be appreciated before their lack of training really gets them killed.

So my question still stands. Who Mr Waid did you train in the Australian Military?


As for Sayoc using the movie "The Hunted" to promote themselves.

Incorrect.........The movie producers used Sayoc to promote "The Hunted".

Just get the DVD and go to the "Special Features"...you will find Sayoc there.


Truth Be Told,

Thank you for the kind comments. Your posts really cut to the crux of this matter.


Leo,

I do hope we meet one day.

I have only great respect and admiration to all at the Atienza clan.

Great people.

khd29
04-11-2007, 02:39 PM
WTF is going on here?

I would like to learn from the Sayoc and Atienza group one day but for now, it's not near the budget. The ones I found charge almost as much as some BJJ academies except the instruction is limited to 2x/week. I was hoping it would be unlimited classes and I would like to know why it is so high. Even my judo dojo doesn't charge that much and that's a full-time dojo, it's the sensei's living.

The Kruzada Kali tuition seemed to be more reasonable but they do not have their own space. Good group of guys, too. I found a PTK school in Park Slope and will check it out soon.

Chris Wiggins
04-11-2007, 03:04 PM
Well, as we say here in Indiana; "some folks ain't ever gonna be able to play banjo".
That's what's going on here.

arnisador
04-11-2007, 03:21 PM
I would like to learn from the Sayoc and Atienza group one day

I got to go to a few Sayoc seminars in Bloomington, IN, but have only read about the Atienza group. I enjoyed the Sayoc material.

Airyu
04-11-2007, 06:10 PM
Hello All,

Chris, expense is all relative to what you receive. Get a few friends together and take a private it will defray the cost and give you a better idea of what A.K. is like.

So many great posts to this thread: What are the high points:

Not one art is any better than the other in the teaching of the Military.
Both PTK and Sayoc Kali teach these groups on a regular basis
Bolos in WWII have nothing to do with PTK
Arts evolve constantly
Marketing is in the eye of the beholder.
Discussion between the arts is how we grow together in the arts!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

JohnJ
04-12-2007, 11:29 AM
expense is all relative to what you receive

I strongly disagree with this. The almighty dollar does not translate to quality etc. If that were the case, the Manongs back home (some here) would not be struggling. It is often a marketing ploy that later becomes a tool that some take advantage of. The need to somehow quantify their system or validate the claims of being the premier art.

And as seen on khd29's post:
I was hoping it would be unlimited classes and I would like to know why it is so high. It has lured attention again.

Sadly, the general public is drawn to these gimmicks and often fall victim.

Airyu
04-12-2007, 06:02 PM
Hello John,

I hope all is well withyou and your students.

I did not say that the almighty dollar denotes quality, but I also disagree withyour premise that "If that were the case, the Manongs back home (some here) would not be struggling."

Just because individual instructors are struggling anywhere in the world does not mean that someone else cannot charge an amount that will give them a decent living standard. How many of us have paid $50 - 85/hr for a mechanic to work on our vehicle, or the Lawer that charges $75 - 300/hr, Dentist $85 +/hr this list can go on and on.

I believe that Manongs should charge more as well as MA schools and Instructors as well. If an instructor, school etc is not giving the student or customer the value equal to or exceeding the money being received, the market and the student will not pay the amount asked for.

So what is the "gimmick"? Stating a price and receiving it? Price is not a validation of any art, validation comes thru what the customer/student receives and decides is valid for the cost.

"Caveat Emptor"
How many of us have paid thousands of dollars for training over the years?? When you felt that you over spent or have been cheated, did you ever go back? Those arts that have done this are like chaff in the wind and are blown away with time. I do not think the public is naive or stupid, and the internet and forums such as these allow the questions to be brought out and discussed.

Will some take advantage of this "pricing", yes they will. This is no different than many other professions, again I blieve the forums and internet help point out these individuals and they will fall away.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L. - "Train hard it is the Way!"

www.Bujinkandojo.net (http://www.Bujinkandojo.net)

JohnJ
04-12-2007, 07:54 PM
I did not say that the almighty dollar denotes quality,

The inquiry was on the astronomical prices that some are charging. However, as you put it, "expense is all relative to what you receive". Therefore, how can it be read any different?? Expense in relation to services, correct? I am curious how individual's in the MA community quantify their personal worth through dollars. Compared to medical professionals and the likes of, what justifies and/or qualifies them?


Just because individual instructors are struggling anywhere in the world does not mean that someone else cannot charge an amount that will give them a decent living standard.

My point was not in reference to people charging to make a living. I understand that. Those who teach for a living MUST have a business side to things in order to succeed. However, they can do without the marketing ploys, gimmicks and high dollar values that are starting to be trends. As I mentioned, there is no comparison to the medical fields and other professions to martial arts. This is not to look down at our achievements. I too am very passionate about the MA and believe I have personal worth. Although it is not a primary instrument I care to use.


I believe that Manongs should charge more as well as MA schools and Instructors as well.

While it would be nice for such individuals to reap the same rewards, the individual goals differ. Preservation of these arts and its martial culture is sought first. And from generation to generation, the art, its values and history become a never ending cycle of rewards. Whereas money can end as easy as it was attained.


If (http://fmatalk.com/) an instructor, school etc is not giving the student or customer the value equal to or exceeding the money being received, the market and the student will not pay the amount asked for. (http://fmatalk.com/)

So you are in fact using value as it relates to quality of service then?


Price is not a validation of any art, validation comes thru what the customer/student receives and decides is valid for the cost.

A price is used to validate the value or worth of an item or service.


How many of us have paid thousands of dollars for training over the years??

Over the years...not months nor hours.


When you felt that you over spent or have been cheated, did you ever go back?

I've been fortunate NOT to over spend.


I do not think the public is naive or stupid,

Nor do I. But many are drawn by what, marketing! This is how things and services are initially sold.


and the internet and forums such as these allow the questions to be brought out and discussed.

This is the reason I posted.


Will some take advantage of this "pricing", yes they will.

Both as the consumer and the provider.

truth_be_told
04-12-2007, 10:18 PM
mr. john & mr. steve,

could you name those arts or schools that charges top $$$ in the US ?
perhaps we should run a census survey as to how much they each charge in contrast to the standard of living where those arts wer taught ?

my lessons learnt here is that one school/art can 'pseudo-claim' to be the top notch premier Mil/LE blade arts because it beats other Mil/LE bodies.

Therefore students/participants are either getting good discount based on market price or paying top $$$ for it based on such 'pseudo-claims'

john, in the philippines i had also seen some masters who indulge in excessive lifestyle, living beyond their means and years later end up struggling in their late years mainly due to their undoing and not the amount $$ obtained - these i abhors them.
but also like what you said, they are also genuine master i had seen struggling for the preservation of their arts -these i salute them.

JohnJ
04-12-2007, 10:42 PM
could you name those arts or schools that charges top $$$ in the US ?

I have no need to point fingers but rather, raise some points I consider valid. I am sure you can pick them out yourself. Just compare rates from various instructors/systems and you will be sure to find your answers.


my lessons learnt here is that one school/art can 'pseudo-claim' to be the top notch premier Mil/LE blade arts because it beats other Mil/LE bodies.

Didn't realize the art beats the art. I always thought it was the practitioner that makes the art. Sorry but I disagee with your statement. Using the basis of "beat" is not even in the realm of battle testing assessment in within the military let alone a functional thought process with LEO organizations.


Therefore students/participants are either getting good discount based on market price or paying top $$$ for it based on such 'pseudo-claims'

Seeing you like to pay top dollar, go for it. I am pretty confident with what I have learned and teach and have not grown broke from it. Edge weapons use is a poor mans art...."Simple to learn, easy to use but difficult to defend".


in the philippines i had also seen some masters who indulge in excessive lifestyle, living beyond their means and years later end up struggling in their late years mainly due to their undoing and not the amount $$ obtained

Could you name some of them? I have never seen a single nor have heard of a single FMA instructor in the PI living an excessive lifestyle.

Thanks for your reply.

Stinky Weasel
04-12-2007, 11:04 PM
Well, as we say here in Indiana; "some folks ain't ever gonna be able to play banjo".
That's what's going on here.

Hi Mr. Chris., I've been reading Mr. Tim's posts. I don't see where he has contended that he has taught the Recon Marines banjo playing. I think you have missed something

khd29
04-12-2007, 11:33 PM
I will share my experience, Truth Be Told. While I was searching for an FMA school, I was comparing the prices to my previous schools: My judo and Kyokushin dojos and Boxing gym. These are all in New York City and opening your own business anywhere is expensive. You have to consider the rent, the business licence, utilities, staff salary, etc.

My judo dojo is a full-time dojo, open 6 days a week, 1.5 hour classes long and could be longer if there is a tournament coming. This is the sensei's primary income. He had to pay a lot of fees to open a business and have his own space in Tribeca. My sensei came from Japan in the mid to late 60's. IIRC, he wrestled for Meiji University and also a judoka. In judo, he lost in the semi-finals to the eventual Japanese representative in the up comiing Olympics. Came over to the US, won a national judo championship, his students did well internationally and one became one of the best coaches in the US. We have world class athletes come down and train at our dojo often. It is still one of the best dojos in the city. His fee structure is different, you either pay by the # of classes (20 or 50) or an unlimited for $1400.

Kyokushin dojo is located in 5th Avenue near the Empire State Bldg. This is the best Kyokushin (Matsui line) school (IMVHO) in NYC, and the official headquarters of of Mas Oyama's organization in the US. The Uchi-daeshi (?) are world class- Filho, Tanaka, Goto, all taught in this school. They charged me $100/mo for a 3 month contract, then when I renewed,, it came out $50/mo. There is the Shihan and 3-5 sensei's. The fees are all for unlimited classes. It has a lot of students though.

The boxing gym was the most expensive. Charged me $180/mo for unlimited training. Open from 7 am to 9 pm. You get "personal" training and use of the facilities during business hours. A few of the trainers I met fought in the Golden Gloves finals in Madison Square Garden but never made pro. Very big gym located near City Hall and a lot of staff. I only stayed for a year but from what I was told, they have an excellent program.

I was looking for FMA schools and the tuition for the schools I was really interested in was too high. Instruction was 2x/week, classes are 1.5 hrs. and class availability was limited. They don't have their own dojo and the other one seemed to be in his apartment. I had no option to go which days I can or want to train. If I miss one day because something happened at work, I lose my $. It may not be fair to compare them to my other schools but I want the most for that much $ paid.

I found one group that I liked. The price seemed fair and the instructor trained with several grand masters from the PI. They don't have their own dojo but price he charged was reasonable to me.

I don't mind paying but I want to know if what I am paying for is really worth it and it has to be reasonable. I am not one to judge in quality in FMA because I know nothing about it. I just want the best "bang for my buck".

khd29
04-12-2007, 11:35 PM
Hi Mr. Chris., I've been reading Mr. Tim's posts. I don't see where he has contended that he has taught the Recon Marines banjo playing. I think you have missed something


I think he was referring to my question- "What's going on here?".

arnisador
04-12-2007, 11:57 PM
I think he was referring to my question- "What's going on here?".

Speaking of which--we seem to be getting off-topic: How Was PTK Selected to Teach the Police and RP Spec. Forces?

khd29
04-13-2007, 12:35 AM
Speaking of which--we seem to be getting off-topic: How Was PTK Selected to Teach the Police and RP Spec. Forces?


Yep. I asked the question "What's...." because there was a lot of anger in the thread. I referred to 2 other systems because it was mentioned by a member.

khd29
04-13-2007, 12:53 AM
I was looking for FMA schools and the tuition for the schools I was really interested in was too high. Instruction was 2x/week, classes are 1.5 hrs. and class availability was limited.


Checked the school: Lessons are 2 hrs. Sorry..

Matt Lim
04-13-2007, 02:35 AM
Hi Mr. Chris., I've been reading Mr. Tim's posts. I don't see where he has contended that he has taught the Recon Marines banjo playing. I think you have missed somethingthe Recon Marines play banjo?!?!?!

Matt Lim
04-13-2007, 02:56 AM
I found one group that I liked. The price seemed fair and the instructor trained with several grand masters from the PI.are you sure? this mastah can be just nutriding for all you know.


They don't have their own dojo but price he charged was reasonable to me. I hope that goes the same on the quality of instruction.


I don't mind paying but I want to know if what I am paying for is really worth it and it has to be reasonable. I am not one to judge in quality in FMA because I know nothing about it. I just want the best "bang for my buck".can't really be so sure but you can ask around or observe a few classes. I know most can give free intro classes.

JohnJ
04-13-2007, 08:16 AM
Speaking of which--we seem to be getting off-topic:

Sorry folks, kinda went off tangent.

Tim Waid
04-13-2007, 05:19 PM
Read closely my final words for this thread. If you feel the need to continue your jealous rants, you can email me off-line.

Eddie would be here, but has been sent to detention for one week of sensitivity training. He shall return.

We are there. You are not. Get over it.

Pekiti-Tirsia has the longest standing, institutionalized system of Close Quarters Combat/Combatives, based upon the Filipino Martial Arts, in the Philippine military today.

We have brought professional recognition to the FMA, the Philippine military and Police, and the Philippines by showcasing the modern use of the ancient (and unchanged) Filipino Fighting Arts. Now that’s innovative.

Our latest projects: Just yesterday, April 12, Grand Tuhon Gaje finished filming a documentary special for the History Channel profiling the traditional training methods of Dumog (strength and conditioning training in mud/rice paddies and carabao wrestling) in Negros Occidental, and the combat Bladefighting skills of the Force Reconnaissance Bn. at Headquarters, Philippine Marine Corps.

This past November, the Discovery Channel filmed the reality show feature pilot program FIGHT QUEST where two US based MMA fighters traveled to the Philippines, were trained by Grand Tuhon Gaje (the second fighter trained by Master Cristino Vasquez of Modern Arnis) for one week, ending with both fighters fighting full-contact (Fencing headgear and hand protection only with single stick, marking knives, and empty-hands) against two Force Recon Marines (Pekiti-Tirsia). Stay tuned for release dates. By the way, Discovery and History Channels came to us, unsolicited. The reason is obvious.

Now to address our fans (in order of appearance):

Jim,

It appears you are talking out of both sides of your mouth (no offense). You state that you train and teach all manner and method of FMA, yet belittle its study and use for the soldier. The Knife/Sword/Edged Weapon, as I am sure you know, happens to be the most prevalent symbol and insignia for SOF and Infantry units by the world’s armed forces, including the SAS. This is not pure symbolism; it identifies both specific and implied skills. You additionally stated:

“the main knife skill taught to arms corp units in the ADF is sentry removal on CQF courses not duelling, the ADFs response to duelling is the M4 or F88 styer rifle”.

I never mentioned dueling, you did. We train force on force skills and scenarios with the Bolo, Knife, and Empty-Hands (derived directly from the knife method as in authentic FMA) against all weapons, issued and field-expedient, carried by the soldier. The point you were implying is well taken. “Martial Arts Instructors” with no firearms and tactics training end up giving a military unit a course on knife to knife/dueling, instead of training knife skills for weapon retention, weapon disarming, and close-quarters killing. I also gave historical documentation of use of the Combat Bolo by Infantry and SOF. Also consider the Ghurkas. Consider the essential carry and use of the Bolo in jungle operations. The British Army and SAS issue the Golok for jungle ops. If you are going to carry it, best to master it for all uses. I also have a newspaper article (which I will gladly share with you) from the Philippines (1997) featuring an incident where an operator was shot with an M14 (7.62), then drew his Bolo and killed his assailant. Bolo wins.

I think we can both agree that close-quarters-combat skills outside of firearms is really a matter of individual initiative and interest. All units usually have a number of experienced martial artists. Real world training time and operational tempo truly limits the time a unit can commit to combatives.

Finally, I said nothing negative or otherwise that can be interpreted as “scoring of points off the back of elite Australian forces”. What I said was:

“they (SAS) could not deal with the knife and several types of bolos that some SAF members carried and demonstrated, and, they readily admitted this. As these joint training operations go, both sides had specific recognized tactical proficiencies and learned from each other. And, as I stated earlier, I am sure their (SAS) combatives system/training has and continues to change.”

During that particular joint training program, the SAS cadre was teaching blocking and grabbing of the knife! No more needs to be said. This was 1996 and 97, and I clearly mentioned other tactical proficiencies, certainly, and that their combatives probably has changed (for the better).

It is what it is. I remember training to block and grab the knife at the Tang Soo Do school, but ever fortunate to be stationed in the Philippines and being enlightened.


Truth be Told (unnamed of course):

“… is this via some padded sports stick/trainer blade events or war simulation or what?”

Your lack of knowledge and experience is glaringly apparent. Therefore, you lack the credibility to judge. Come back after you have served a tour.


Matt Limm:

How Was PTK Sellected to Teach the Police and RP Spec. Forces?
Very few FMA group in RP would want to be associated with the Philippine military and police organization.

Why would the police and specops want to learn blade use?
Seems they're getting tired of using nylon, nails, and cement on their civilian opponents.

“Mr. Limm” shows his true leftist colors by insulting the AFP and PNP. Anakpawis? Gabriela? Or simple CPP/NPA sympathizer?

Remember, these institutions also toppled Marcos and inspired democratic change around the world, a great tribute to the Filipino. But, I can bet you don’t have many comrades on these forums.


Ray Floro:

IMHO, the above so called "Pekiti-Tirsia Military/LE programs and history" smacks of nothing more than pure Marketing & Advertising commentary with all this "Branding by association" and "Name droppings" of Military/LE bodies.

“I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with Truth Be Told,”

Do not presume to lecture me on “marketing” and “name dropping”. Your website homepage is one full page of direct marketing, endorsement quotes, and photo of military “training” with no LBE, rucksack, or firearms. Looks like knife dueling to me, don’t you think Jim?

On the other hand, the Pekiti-Tirsia Global Organization homepage has none of the above. Because we need none. And we don’t advertise. Because the best have always, and continue, to come to Grand Tuhon Gaje to further their skills and training. And that includes the Sayocs, Atienzas, and PG Sulite among many, many others.

But you are truly amazing. More like unbelievable.

“So please provide us a list of your "Contracted" military work in the Western World.”

The Philippines is apparently not good enough for you anymore. In one sentence you have slighted your native country, its armed forces, its martial history, and the FMA.

What character.

By the way, Pekiti-Tirsia has had an “Approved Contract” with a US Army Special Forces Group Headquarters and Battalion for the past two years.


Mr. Lefebvre:

“Not one art is any better than the other in the teaching of the Military.”

Well…NO.

“Arts evolve constantly”

Maybe…certainly some have to. Most of the time it is an excuse for those that can’t complete an existing system.
(Calm down everyone, I did not name names so don’t think it’s you)

“Bolos in WWII have nothing to do with PTK”

No kidding, find where I said they did. I described the units that carried, trained, and were effective with Combat Bolos. Nothing more.

“Discussion between the arts is how we grow together in the arts!”

WTF? I don’t want to grow together with any of you.

But it has been fun.

Seriously, I commend anyone who has proven competent to train any military or law enforcement. They require functional training and tactics, and there is plenty of opportunity out there for all.

Tim Waid
Maginoo
Pekiti-Tirsia Kali
www.pt-go.com (http://www.pt-go.com)

Stinky Weasel
04-13-2007, 08:12 PM
Hi Mr. Tim,

Wow. Such a post. You obviously have a deep conviction. I am new to FMA. My background is with Shaolin Do. Three years. I love the Quan Do. CAn you send me links to these programs on the History Network that you mention. I would even buy the Dvd's if they sell them. I have the Dish but dont see them listed. I heard that Kali means to scrape. I don't know what that means. Do they talk about it on the shows they filmed?

lhommedieu
04-13-2007, 10:41 PM
I heard that Kali means to scrape. I don't know what that means. Do they talk about it on the shows they filmed?

http://www.bloodsport.com/kalimts/

Best,

Steve Lamade

sneaky
04-14-2007, 04:06 AM
Hi Tim,

Not to be a fly in the ointment as it were , but what you said was "SAF have proven PTK against the Australian SASR and Airmarshalls amoungst others" no mention of the others , It came across as you were putting SAF skills on a pedestal as it was proven AGAINST SASR , you see where I am going here?

I think I was rather clear in my post, it was never my intention to run down knife skill as it is one of my favorite areas in training, all I am saying is context is king here, bolos in the jungle is mission specific, khukris are traditional weapons to the Gurkas as I said in my posts there is a blade culture in the PIs so I understand the significance to the area but its my belief that knives etc are not PRIMARY weapon systems in modern combat , you can think what ever you like Tim as is your right, I dont think thats talking out both sides of my mouth is it?

All the best,

Jim

khd29
04-14-2007, 09:20 AM
Hi Mr. Tim,

CAn you send me links to these programs on the History Network that you mention. I would even buy the Dvd's if they sell them. I have the Dish but dont see them listed. I heard that Kali means to scrape. I don't know what that means. Do they talk about it on the shows they filmed?


Stinky Weasel,

There was a thread from another forum (MMA.TV) about filming FMA in the PI by the History Channel. I believe it is due out in July. He was in Japan (Okinawa then Tokyo) first the head off the PI. This may be the same crew.

eugene johnson
04-17-2007, 01:42 AM
I dont Formally study FMA however I have been reading this debate very closely and while I respect all, I believe that Tim Waid make the most cogent points and that his resonses are more than apt in answering those who are debating him. Furthermore I believe that it is self evident that if the motherland accepts Pekei Tersia as its system then they probably did it for a good reason. The Phil. Military is a very active in combat and would never choose an inferior art. (one day I will join a formal FMA school and pekite Tersia will be my first choice - not to say that some of the other ones are not good -i believe that most of them are good arts)
Im a voracious researcher and have just visited the Pekitti terisa website and I can say that Im am very impressed. I also am impressed most by the Leo Gahe video clips on the you-tube.

Peace and health to all

puntadas
04-17-2007, 01:02 PM
I'd agree here, seems the vast majority of martial artists forget that these systems they're involved in learning or teaching actually swing from a reference point & the opinions lodged by many of the people in this particular thread - demonstrate an almost 1960's/70's mentality in appreciation - immature!
These people ought remember they have a responsibility in this day & age to convey the correct information: self-deception & the hoodwinking of students that present themselves in good faith (spec ops or not) can no longer be tolerated.
10 out of 10 to Tim Waid & his teacher Tuhon Leo Gaje for bringing these valuable truthes to us.

bladedone
04-18-2007, 09:52 AM
I would have to agree puntadas. I began my MA studies during the summer of 1979. I have studied countless MA. "Take what is useful... Disregard the rest" philosophy. If you will. PTK is the only system that i have stuck with for one simple reason. It is a complete system i can learn, and make it my own, to fit me. I don't have to please an instructor by being forced to be his robot. I'm not learning to do this and this and this and this and this and this... when my opponent attacks. I have honed my mindset to dominate an opponent(s) within 3 to 5 seconds in that situation. And for that? Thank you, Mr. Waid. You have made me a better Martial Scientist, Artist, and all around person. TUHON! You have my utmost respect, Mr. Waid.

puntadas
04-18-2007, 12:14 PM
I liked Tim's:
We are there. You are not. Get over it.

& when the charlatan's come in blowing their trumpets...
that's all they can do!

CARP
04-18-2007, 06:09 PM
What is the true meaning of your call sign "Puntadas"?

Asaiiiiiieeeeeee!

Gilla
04-19-2007, 12:13 AM
After a week of sensitivity training and appalacaian ban-ijitsu I'm back> with Phil Donahue as a mentor , I can't help but to be a better person. Thank you Phil and Noe Toe's Johnson my banjo Guro.
Eddie

Matt Lim
04-19-2007, 12:41 AM
Wakka.. wakka.. wakka!!! April boys drilling palusut and sagang labo!!!

eugene johnson
04-19-2007, 01:20 AM
I just saw the video clips of TIm Wade sparring on the pt-go website. I'm speechless. Wow! I have never before seen such precision in any FMA especially the footwork. If anybody has seen any footwork this sharp please let me know. I especially like the way his strikes and footwork worked in such precision. I am also a geometry nerd (in addition to being a nerd in many academic fields) and I can appreciate the angles that Mr wade was able to incorporate in his sparring.

arnisador
04-19-2007, 09:25 AM
I am also a geometry nerd (in addition to being a nerd in many academic fields) and I can appreciate the angles that Mr wade was able to incorporate in his sparring.

I am a mathematician and I know exactly what you mean!

Gilla
04-19-2007, 09:32 AM
Mr.Waid comes to N.Y.C 2 a year and he is outstanding . If you get the chance go see him.
Eddie

blindside
04-19-2007, 10:13 AM
I just saw the video clips of TIm Wade sparring on the pt-go website. I'm speechless. Wow! I have never before seen such precision in any FMA especially the footwork. If anybody has seen any footwork this sharp please let me know. I especially like the way his strikes and footwork worked in such precision. I am also a geometry nerd (in addition to being a nerd in many academic fields) and I can appreciate the angles that Mr wade was able to incorporate in his sparring.

Youtube "Pekiti," there is a series of technical sparring videos of Tim and Gabrial Martinez.

puntadas
04-19-2007, 11:26 AM
to the point...
& now that godzilla is out of jail?

eugene johnson
04-19-2007, 11:53 AM
Thanks guys! The more I compare the Pekti Tirsia to the other systems out there the more it appeals to my intellectual curiosity.
One day (if I train hard enough) I would like to have the skills/power of the pekiti people that I see on all these videos

bladedone
04-21-2007, 11:00 AM
you will, eugene. and maybe one day someone will say that about you. good luck in your travels along the path.

Chris Wiggins
04-21-2007, 10:18 PM
I've had a few margaritas so I feel like I can pass on a few things that will make your Pekiti training easier. There are a few things that you MUST be ablle to do.

1. You must have a tolerance for San Miguel.
2. Tanduay must flow through your veins.
3. It helps if you can fight with a dip in.
4. Your karoke skills must be honed.

everything else is a piece of cake.

Train on!

puntadas
04-22-2007, 10:05 PM
san miguel lite & diet coke...

Filipe
04-24-2007, 03:33 PM
Lesson learned: Don't eat a bowl of ceral when reading some of these comments. Laughter tends to make it come through the nose.....Eugene, are you real???

eugene johnson
04-25-2007, 12:26 PM
Thats not very nice.....

langgaw
04-27-2007, 11:09 PM
Mr Tim Waid,

With all due respect, your claims should be mellowed down as it sounds a bit offensive to the FMA groups mentioned. I am sure you are very good in you field of expertise but maintain a level of respect and professionalism with regards to claims. Opinions however are welcomed and very much encouraged but expressing views that would tend to be divisive or insulting needs more thinking. I am a nobody and yet I respect all styles and system as a fellow FMAer. You have shared a lot of useful information and I am sure everyone appreciates it but I suggest to remain objective. Being subjective gets one nowhere but responses of the same tone. Humility will work specially when everybody in the FMA knows that out there ......another system is still better. More power to you.

puntadas
04-28-2007, 11:16 AM
good point!

"with great power, comes great responsibility"...

it must be very difficult in a world of fma, where the ego's have already run rampant - cashed in, are still cashing in & a good chunk of what is being taught is not true, not to mention lowering the name of filipino culture & causing suffering.

whereas a real live swordsman, would stand up & say:

"listen here my lil chickens, the foxy is comin ~ time to practice the real thing"

thanks for standing up, Tim Waid!

Chris Wiggins
04-28-2007, 07:14 PM
I'm still wondering which unnamed "system" out there is better?

langgaw
04-29-2007, 10:09 AM
... we can all just wonder. No one really knows yet. But when it comes , we will all jsut say ..."oh, that ..." this is where a little humility helps ones self and it goes a long, long way.

puntadas
05-01-2007, 01:10 PM
I'm still wondering & we can all just wonder...
you guys figured it all out =
'the great mystery'
way to go!

gold_chapter
05-23-2007, 03:18 PM
Great posts, very enlightening indeed...

We found this video you might enjoy:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3sc7JQFLM1M (http://youtube.com/watch?v=3sc7JQFLM1M)

gold_chapter
05-24-2007, 06:53 AM
ptk was selected because the commanding officer noticed that when it comes to blade the marines were ignorant. so he set out and searched for a bladed weapon art, and the commanding officer's friend suggested filipino martial arts namely PTK.

http://maxsofmanila.com/online/images/halo2_new_small.jpg

Kailat
11-14-2007, 11:48 AM
Hello, I was browsing through much of this thread. And its very long up to 9pages. I only went through bits and parts of it, but the premise of this thread is the understanding of how GT Leo T. Gaje JR. and his PT was chosen to teach the Philippine Force Recon Marines. I believe Maginoo Waid summed that up pretty explainatory.

However, upon the first page of this thread a poster 408kali asked the question: " I love to hear that there are FMAers teaching military, police, or swat.

I would love to have the opportunity to do that someday.."

This is a good question. And I have to say I agree in those that say only a few individuals teaching Military and or LEO is by MA enthusiest. HOWEVER being in the Law Enforcement field as an officer in Indiana. I have the fortunate ability to teach CQC edged weapon and tactical baton to much of our dept. However, even though its only something I do on average of about 2 maybe 3 times a year.

Here is the deal. NOT just anyone can run in off the street and say " hey i have (X) amount of training and or skill in the said field and why don't you put me to the test and I'd love to train your officers or military soldiers."

This being said a smaller town or city dept you may get lucky with. But for most part it is standard that majority of Police Dept's send their own officers to the Academy to get certified as a Defensive Tactics inst. Once you have gained that confidence of your dept then you as the inst. can open the floor to many if anything you wish.

Myself and one of my fellow officers switch off throughout the year teaching ground fighting and weapons retention, as well as my teachng tacticle edged awareness training.

As for the Military again much of the same thing. THey look for those within. Even my past military prior service, and current LEO certs and martial arts training i've tried to get involved in local National Guard and Reserve units. Ive gotten many negative responses. So the glorification of being a tactics instuructor isn't that glamour driven. And I'll be honest from my own experience the worst group of individuals you as an insturctor want to teach as for IMMATURITY, and those that take training we in the FMA field can offer is the Police Officers. NOw im not saying "ALL" officers but man the majority i've taught they love to clown around, blow off much of the training. You have to get their attention quick and maintain it over all the training. Many of them are there because they get paid for it and are forced to be there and could care less. It's not like a Martial Arts group who PAY YOU, and WANT TO BE There to learn. So thats just alittle of the negative side of teaching Law Enforcement. Its not all what its cracked up to be. In fact I have not taught a DT class in about a year lately mainly because I really was upset at the behaviour of the guys at my last training. The small amount of pay that most of us in that field paid through our dept get just insn't worth the headaches and hassels to me. Just my.02 worth.

Nico2270
11-18-2007, 10:41 PM
Cory,

I read your post and really feel your pain. I'm an LEO down in Indy and a former DT instructor. It is scary to have to sign off on some officers that don't seem to take it seriously. If they ever get in an altercation and misuse what they have learned; too much, or worse too little, then the first thing done is to see who trained them.

On another note, there are some motivated officers out there that want to continue their training. I have really come to appreciate PTK. It has given me great tools to store away, and made me more blade aware. I wish more officers were open to this sort of training. It may be tiring, but I hope you find the officers on your department that want to be better than they are and continue to train them. Put on a free seminar. You know how cheap we can be. It might be just the hook needed! Stay safe.

Nick

trainer9731
11-20-2007, 02:41 AM
Cory,

I too feel your pain. As a Police Trainer in a large Dept for a number of years now I have had experiences similar to what you describe. The solution that I have come up with and that seems to work well for me is to offer optional training. In Mandatory training you will always have the element that you describe, however in optional training those same officers (or most of them at least) will have a much better mindset, and be ready to work and learn. The ones that are unreachable wont sign up thus not disrupting the ones who want to learn.
With Optional training, I have had very successful training days. Plus you can do more in that format:
Mandatory training in a large dept - to send everyone (hundreds or even thosands) through training will take months which is a huge drain on resources.
In contrast, with optional training (since every officer doesnt have to go through it) you can offer 4 or 5 classes (12-20 students each) throughout the entire year which is very doable in most depts.

Here is Another phenomia that I have observed, Sometimes an officer, say a Detective, will scoff at the training because he doesnt think that he will every be in a situation where he would have to use it, but then at a future time, say he's transfered back into a street asignment ( and/or he gets into a confrontation with a suspect) he will suddenly become interested in what you have to teach. Optional training is perfect for this because you dont want him in your class if he is not ready to learn ( he may even be disruptive and/or distracting) but when he is ready to learn, he can sign up for the optional class.

anyways, just a suggestion - I know that every dept is structured different and hopefully it'll help you in your agency.

P.S. it interesting speaking with Martial Artists who are not cops, They assume that all Police Officers will have the same entusiasm that they do for Self Defense. How shocked they would be if they were to watch just one mandatory inservice class...

- Good Luck and keep trying! - They are worth it

still lurking
11-21-2007, 02:42 PM
P.S. it interesting speaking with Martial Artists who are not cops, They assume that all Police Officers will have the same entusiasm that they do for Self Defense. How shocked they would be if they were to watch just one mandatory inservice class...

a lot of cops can't even do 20 push ups.

Kailat
11-30-2007, 05:00 PM
TRAINER 9731 & NICCO;

Gentlemen, thank you for both of your in depth responses to my post. It is touching to know that others have felt what i've went through. My dept. is exactly that of which you describe. There are a small handfull of officers who I've offerred optional training for. As well as we've had seminars and i've had a hand full of officers from our dept as well as surrounding dept's show up. It was for the most part very information for those. I agree with you in the field that many officers feel they have the upper hand, only to find out that not all situations are service weapon answerable.

Working in L.E. I've realized that my specialized training "FMA" has really made my awareness for things so much more hightened.

I have not taught a DT session in about a year only because the last class I taught really seemed to upset me with the way these guys acted. It only seems to happen when I teach my own group of officer's that i work with. but i've had nothing more then the upmost respect from other dept's that i've taught.

But since i've just really enjoyed only teaching my small group of individuals that I have in our circle here in my hometown. I have no desire to run a large group, school, organization etc... Ive found great fun and excellent results in training in our group. But hey how did this get turned around to "ME"? LOL

onto the purpose of this topic.

thanks

Cory

eskrimakaliarnis.com
08-26-2008, 06:41 AM
All,

The PNP had a "try out" last week in Manila at Camp Crame (Thursday I think). Local Grand-Masters from a variety of disciplines such as PTK, Lightning, Bahad Zubu, Akido, Krav Maga, Grappling etc, etc demonstrated their arts for a number of the top brass and Police Officers around Luzon.

I think they wish to update their defense program and as an officer told me at the weekend "Cops keep shooting people with knives / bolos and getting bad PR".

My view is that's better than being dead but that's beside the point.

Maybe somebody who was there would like to relate how PTK compared with the other martial arts on display? Shame it wasn't captured on video really...

***Edit***

I just spent some time reading through the whole 9 pages! of this thread and would like to answer an interesting question that was raised earlier.

"Why would someone turn down the PNP?"

A few reasons are time and money. If you're a local Grand-master who is teaching foreign students and going abroad to teach seminars you'd have to take a big pay cut to teach the PNP. Also the Philippines is a geographically diverse place and the logistics of going to all the provinces is a hardship too. Just something to think about...

Whatever art is chosen I think it will be ten-times better than that afforded to the police officers of the U.K...

Combative Edge
08-27-2008, 12:57 PM
I had check with MANDALA ROMMEL TORTAL in the Philippines regarding this issue about PNP Training.

Here are the true facts
:
The Philippine National Police has the Philippine Public Safety College under the Presidency of Madame Tingting Cojuangco that managed the Philippine Natiomnal Police Academy(PNPA), The National Police College. The PPSC had 18 RTS- Regional Traiining Center ( 18 regions) all over the Philippines.

Pekiti-Tirsia Program of Instruction is now an official curriculum of the PNPA and the Philippine Public Safety College. PNPA -4 years course , the PTK has 4 years curriculum from first year to 4th year.

The Public Safety College for Non-Commissioned Officers : PTK program of Instruction is a major program

The Philippine National Police program for regular police is managed by the (DHRDD).under the DHRDD is the Special Action Force Commandos, Crisis Response Group, Aviation Security Group, Intelligence Unit, Presidential Security Group,'Anti-tterrorism Intelligence Group and other special operations. PTK Edged Impact Weapon Tactical Control Dynamics is the official training program.

To be accepted in the PNP, the system must be pure filipino system, must have track record in training the law enforcement and the military.
PTK track record in the US Criminal Justice system and the Austrian Cobra Commandos, and the Philippine Marine Corps, Special Action force commandos are more than sufficient credentials. No FMA can equal the credentials of the PTK.

Combative Edge
08-27-2008, 12:58 PM
I had check with MANDALA ROMMEL TORTAL in the Philippines regarding this issue about PNP Training.

Here are the true facts
:
The Philippine National Police has the Philippine Public Safety College under the Presidency of Madame Tingting Cojuangco that managed the Philippine Natiomnal Police Academy(PNPA), The National Police College. The PPSC had 18 RTS- Regional Traiining Center ( 18 regions) all over the Philippines.

Pekiti-Tirsia Program of Instruction is now an official curriculum of the PNPA and the Philippine Public Safety College. PNPA -4 years course , the PTK has 4 years curriculum from first year to 4th year.

The Public Safety College for Non-Commissioned Officers : PTK program of Instruction is a major program

The Philippine National Police program for regular police is managed by the (DHRDD).under the DHRDD is the Special Action Force Commandos, Crisis Response Group, Aviation Security Group, Intelligence Unit, Presidential Security Group,'Anti-tterrorism Intelligence Group and other special operations. PTK Edged Impact Weapon Tactical Control Dynamics is the official training program.

To be accepted in the PNP, the system must be pure filipino system, must have track record in training the law enforcement and the military.
PTK track record in the US Criminal Justice system and the Austrian Cobra Commandos, and the Philippine Marine Corps, Special Action force commandos are more than sufficient credentials. No FMA can equal the credentials of the PTK.

eskrimakaliarnis.com
08-27-2008, 01:29 PM
The above harks back to the point I was making. Just because the art may be effective doesn't mean you have the resources and / or infrastucture to embark upon a governement training program.

Did you ask how last week's demo went btw?

Brian R. VanCise
08-28-2008, 10:35 AM
So it sounds like there was an open try out to retain the government contracts. I imagine this is pretty standard. It will be interesting to see the results. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Banakun
08-28-2008, 10:55 AM
I agree with eskrimakaliarnis... I'm an LSAI guy myself and our particular LSAI group just does not have the capability to teach the art on a mass-base basis. We just don't have the experience and the program for it. In this respect, PTK has the most experience I believe...it has the structure, the methodology, etc... and again, this does not automatically mean the others are "inferior."

And true, not everyone would want to train Military or Police for various personal reasons... mostly similar to the reasons why Financing companies hesitate on extending credit to them (Police or Military)... which is just too bad since there are really some honorable Police and Military people out there who just get lumped with the rotten apples...

PeteNerd
08-28-2008, 03:35 PM
All,

The PNP had a "try out" last week in Manila at Camp Crame (Thursday I think). Local Grand-Masters from a variety of disciplines such as PTK, Lightning, Bahad Zubu, Akido, Krav Maga, Grappling etc, etc demonstrated their arts for a number of the top brass and Police Officers around Luzon.

I think they wish to update their defense program and as an officer told me at the weekend "Cops keep shooting people with knives / bolos and getting bad PR".

My view is that's better than being dead but that's beside the point.

Maybe somebody who was there would like to relate how PTK compared with the other martial arts on display? Shame it wasn't captured on video really...

***Edit***

I just spent some time reading through the whole 9 pages! of this thread and would like to answer an interesting question that was raised earlier.

"Why would someone turn down the PNP?"

A few reasons are time and money. If you're a local Grand-master who is teaching foreign students and going abroad to teach seminars you'd have to take a big pay cut to teach the PNP. Also the Philippines is a geographically diverse place and the logistics of going to all the provinces is a hardship too. Just something to think about...

Whatever art is chosen I think it will be ten-times better than that afforded to the police officers of the U.K...


Were you at this event?

Pete

eskrimakaliarnis.com
08-31-2008, 09:26 AM
Were you at this event?No. It came up quite suddenly else I'd tried to blag an invite.

Ron Kosakowski
09-02-2008, 03:37 PM
I hate going into this but I want to throw in my opinion here. I have been to the Philippines every year since 2002 and in spending up to a month each time, I have been all over the place and met many people traveling around the Philippines with Mr. Gaje. Within the NBI, the SAF, the PNP and the CRG. Over those years, I happened to meet a lot of Generals and other higher-ups in rank. Basically, they all said the same thing. They were sick and tired of the old Judo, Aikido and karate fighting methods they were teaching their people and watching them get killed using it. They all researched many styles and desided to choose PTK for their police and/or military personell. I can see where a lot of people feel suspicious of some sort of propaganda going on with some fast talking. Its not...if i did not hear it from the mouths of these higher-ups in rank myself, I probably would have thought the same thing. (another one to add to the Leo Gaje rumors section of the forum)

War has evolved. Terrorism is vast there, and every where elde in the world these days. It is more up close and personal today. Hand to hand is used much more than it was from the Korean war on up. It is sneaky and we do not know who the enemy is. So the blade now comes into play that much more than guns will, unless it is a gun fight.

I had to say all this because all of us in PTK are proud of that the military and the police are using PTK all over the Philippines...the mother-land of FMA's. Name dropping is ok for those of us who need to pay the bills. And if we choose to only be a martial art instructor only...running a martial art school, we need to use whatever it takes to pay those bills. The military in the Philippines and wherever else Mr. Gaje and even myself has taught for LE or military is used to attract attention. And it does! If a celeb was in your style (not mentioning names here at all so be cool) and you use it, well, its for the same reason I assume. Krav Maga uses Jen Lopez and what ever other celeb in that style. Now to me, thats not exactly a style I would get involved in. But look where name dropping got that style! Look what it did for JKD. Thats fine and use it to promote. Nothing wrong with that! We are proud of our style. I have seen people proud of the style they put hard work in even if they are just breaking boards and/or doing katas. Every time I hop on this forum, I see people getting down on the guys who are proud of our style. I just don't get it!http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Ron Kosakowski
09-02-2008, 03:45 PM
I hate going into this but I want to throw in my opinion here. I have been to the Philippines every year since 2002 and in spending up to a month each time, I have been all over the place and met many people traveling around the Philippines with Mr. Gaje. Within the NBI, the SAF, the PNP and the CRG. Over those years, I happened to meet a lot of Generals and other higher-ups in rank. Basically, they all said the same thing. They were sick and tired of the old Judo, Aikido and karate fighting methods they were teaching their people and watching them get killed using it. They all researched many styles and desided to choose PTK for their police and/or military personell. I can see where a lot of people feel suspicious of some sort of propaganda going on with some fast talking. Its not...if i did not hear it from the mouths of these higher-ups in rank myself, I probably would have thought the same thing. (another one to add to the Leo Gaje rumors section of the forum)

War has evolved. Terrorism is vast there, and every where elde in the world these days. It is more up close and personal today. Hand to hand is used much more than it was from the Korean war on up. It is sneaky and we do not know who the enemy is. So the blade now comes into play that much more than guns will, unless it is a gun fight.

I had to say all this because all of us in PTK are proud of that the military and the police are using PTK all over the Philippines...the mother-land of FMA's. Name dropping is ok for those of us who need to pay the bills. And if we choose to only be a martial art instructor only...running a martial art school, we need to use whatever it takes to pay those bills. The military in the Philippines and wherever else Mr. Gaje and even myself has taught for LE or military is used to attract attention. And it does! If a celeb was in your style (not mentioning names here at all so be cool) and you use it, well, its for the same reason I assume. Krav Maga uses Jen Lopez and what ever other celeb in that style. Now to me, thats not exactly a style I would get involved in. But look where name dropping got that style! Look what it did for JKD. Thats fine and use it to promote. Nothing wrong with that! We are proud of our style. I have seen people proud of the style they put hard work in even if they are just breaking boards and/or doing katas. Every time I hop on this forum, I see people getting down on the guys who are proud of our style. I just don't get it!http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Shonin
09-02-2008, 04:44 PM
I instruct LEOs and the military for a living. Over the years I have seen a lot of very talented martial artists demonstrate their abilities. I've seen a lot of LEOs and Military personnel in various and sundry martial arts classes. It was all good. Skills were learned, health was improved, money was made; etc.

But, while there are a lot of very talented instructors out there, I have only ever seen a handful who actually understood the demands and the mission of those who work in harm's way. And even among those who do, their training is almost always a commercial school not specifically designed for special ops. (Yes, of course there are exceptions.)

I've been training since I was 13 and I am just a few years younger than GM Gaje. When I began training in PTK I was enormously impressed by his ability to translate PTK into a form that would fit the demands of a military environment. Certainly he is not the only talented FMA GM. I've trained under others. But I do think he is rather unique in the way he relates a classical FMA to the military environment.

Once they've seen how it is done, could another Grand Master have distilled their system (and their teaching style - command presence) to make it adaptable? Probably. Many of them (fewer all the time) were in combat when I was in diapers. But they didn't, GM Gaje did. The others chose a different path. Again, it's all good.

Although I have not been to the Phillipines, and wasn't around to witness the audition, I suspect that, with body language, presence, and selection of technique, PTK made an impression that struck a chord with the onlookers. It is probably more than a simple case of ability and has much to do with accesability as well.

When I was looking to begin practicing another FMA, my short list was composed of three styles (PTK among them). Full disclosure here, I chose PTK largely because it was the only one of the three available in my area. I'm sure any of the three would have enriched my practice immeasurably. But there is little doubt in my mind that the other two would not have been suitable (in their present form anyway) for military instruction. I am enormously fortunate to have had the Fates direct me towards PTK. I'll work on the other two systems in a couple of decades. :-)

Ron Kosakowski
09-02-2008, 11:54 PM
I instruct LEOs and the military for a living. Over the years I have seen a lot of very talented martial artists demonstrate their abilities. I've seen a lot of LEOs and Military personnel in various and sundry martial arts classes. It was all good. Skills were learned, health was improved, money was made; etc.

But, while there are a lot of very talented instructors out there, I have only ever seen a handful who actually understood the demands and the mission of those who work in harm's way. And even among those who do, their training is almost always a commercial school not specifically designed for special ops. (Yes, of course there are exceptions.)

I've been training since I was 13 and I am just a few years younger than GM Gaje. When I began training in PTK I was enormously impressed by his ability to translate PTK into a form that would fit the demands of a military environment. Certainly he is not the only talented FMA GM. I've trained under others. But I do think he is rather unique in the way he relates a classical FMA to the military environment.

Once they've seen how it is done, could another Grand Master have distilled their system (and their teaching style - command presence) to make it adaptable? Probably. Many of them (fewer all the time) were in combat when I was in diapers. But they didn't, GM Gaje did. The others chose a different path. Again, it's all good.

Although I have not been to the Phillipines, and wasn't around to witness the audition, I suspect that, with body language, presence, and selection of technique, PTK made an impression that struck a chord with the onlookers. It is probably more than a simple case of ability and has much to do with accesability as well.

When I was looking to begin practicing another FMA, my short list was composed of three styles (PTK among them). Full disclosure here, I chose PTK largely because it was the only one of the three available in my area. I'm sure any of the three would have enriched my practice immeasurably. But there is little doubt in my mind that the other two would not have been suitable (in their present form anyway) for military instruction. I am enormously fortunate to have had the Fates direct me towards PTK. I'll work on the other two systems in a couple of decades. :-)
Man, you hit the nail on the head. A handful of people do only understand the needs of LE in comparison to what the military needs are. As for LE, it depends on what branch it is. Is it Swat, or narcotics, homocide, street cops, etc.? They all have certain needs for a different reason. A good FMA style can adapt to whatever their needs are because it is already in the system. There is no need to tweak anything.

You are correct when you say many do make changes in "their style" to adapt to military peronell (am I spelling personell correctly?) and/or LE.

I apologize for the previous double post. I have no idea how i did that. Silly me!http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Brock
09-03-2008, 12:50 AM
Ron- Style bashing is not exclusive to PTK. Every style gets it from somewhere. Just the nature of some humans. Just like the Pepsi vs Coke, Yankees Vs. Mets, and everything else. If what one person likes isn't what someone else likes then they make fun of it or cut it down to keep other people from liking it. I personally feel that every style has something to offer, and there are styles I won't train in or no longer train in because I can't stand the instructor, but it's nothing against the style. I'm sure a lot of others on this forum feel the same way. It's just we tend to notice the bashers more because they get on our nerves.

Oh, BTW I don't think you spelled it right, but I can't spell it either:), and the multi-post is probably because you accidently double clicked on the submit button, and didn't notice. I've done that myself.

arnisador
09-03-2008, 12:06 PM
Yankees Vs. Mets

OK, as a lifelong Mets fan I am officially authorizing bashing of the Yankees.

Ron Kosakowski
09-04-2008, 01:15 PM
Ron- Style bashing is not exclusive to PTK. Every style gets it from somewhere. Just the nature of some humans. Just like the Pepsi vs Coke, Yankees Vs. Mets, and everything else. If what one person likes isn't what someone else likes then they make fun of it or cut it down to keep other people from liking it. I personally feel that every style has something to offer, and there are styles I won't train in or no longer train in because I can't stand the instructor, but it's nothing against the style. I'm sure a lot of others on this forum feel the same way. It's just we tend to notice the bashers more because they get on our nerves.

Oh, BTW I don't think you spelled it right, but I can't spell it either:), and the multi-post is probably because you accidently double clicked on the submit button, and didn't notice. I've done that myself.
I hear ya! Then again, thats what this web entity is for...discussion! And debate is part of it. Dislikes and likes are discussions. Controvercy sure does attract attention though. If I came on here and said, Krav Mage sucks big ****, every KM guy in the country and elsewhere would pile in this forum. Controvercy makes things interesting and i noticed a few people here know that!http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ron Kosakowski
09-04-2008, 01:17 PM
OK, as a lifelong Mets fan I am officially authorizing bashing of the Yankees.
I think a team of PTK guys can beat up both, the Yankees and the Mets!http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Shonin
09-04-2008, 01:53 PM
You mean KM doesn't suck?

Sorry all, just joking. I just would have been immoral to let a straight line like that go by. :-)