Sinawali System?

[arnisador]

I know that some things that I think of as just drills or techniques in Modern Arnis, like sinawalis and ocho ocho, were actually whole systems from which just a little has been taken. What else is in the Sinawali system besides what I'd think of as sinawalis? Is it entirely a double-stick system? I fear that I have a terribly simplistic view of the system based on the handful of sinawali drills I practice!

[sames]

Check out a book called 'Complete Sinawali' by Rey Galang. It has in it something it calls the Central Form of Sinawali... its a long patern that includes several various sinawali (figure-eight, heaven and earth, redonda, etc...). One flows intothe next until you do the whole set. The book has some other good stuff in it as well.

-Steve

[arnisador]

I've seen this book before, I think...I'll take a look.

It sounds like it is a double-stick system as one might expect, then?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Arnisador,

Definately check out this book it is a good one to
have in your library! I have referenced it many a
time over the last several years!

Brian R. VanCise

[Black Grass]

I've seen this book before, I think...I'll take a look.

It sounds like it is a double-stick system as one might expect, then?

Another book by Master Rey Galang that will give you insight to the Siniwali system is Classic ARNIS - The Legacy of Placido Yambao, Yambao espada y daga style is based on Siniwali.

The sinawali system is not simply a double stick system, but also contains stick and dagger, knife, staff and empty hands.

The Bakbakan Siniwali empty hands of that Master Rey teaches at time have a similar look to Silat.


Vince
aka Black Grass

[arnisador]

Check out a book called 'Complete Sinawali' by Rey Galang.

Found it at Borders tonight! Interesting. (I haven't read it yet, only flipped through it.) From the subtitle through all the pictures, they do seem to make it a double-stick art.

I haven't seen Classic Arnis around yet.

[Buwaya]

Another book by Master Rey Galang that will give you insight to the Siniwali system is Classic ARNIS - The Legacy of Placido Yambao, Yambao espada y daga style is based on Siniwali.

The sinawali system is not simply a double stick system, but also contains stick and dagger, knife, staff and empty hands.

The Bakbakan Siniwali empty hands of that Master Rey teaches at time have a similar look to Silat.


Vince
aka Black Grass
Hi Black Grass,
Where did Master Galang's Siniwali come from? Did he learn it from a specific person or system?
Thanks.

[JohnJ]

Sinawali is recognized as a double WEAPONRY system not limited to double stick. The reason for the common misconception is because a lot of the double-stick techniques/patterns were being referred to as Sinawali (meaning to weave). Master Galang is Pampangueno where the art apparently has it's roots. I forgot who his mentor was but believe his great uncle was Placido Yambao's compadre. One of the greatest components of Sinawali is the use of the sword & scabbard. Bakbakan's website has an article on the origin.

John G. Jacobo
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

[Buwaya]

Sinawali is recognized as a double WEAPONRY system not limited to double stick. The reason for the common misconception is because a lot of the double-stick techniques/patterns were being referred to as Sinawali (meaning to weave). Master Galang is Pampangueno where the art apparently has it's roots. I forgot who his mentor was but believe his great uncle was Placido Yambao's compadre. One of the greatest components of Sinawali is the use of the sword & scabbard. Bakbakan's website has an article on the origin.

John G. Jacobo
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

Perhaps Doc Lengson?

Placido Yambao was a Kapampangan?

[JohnJ]

Doc Lengson was Topher Ricketts Karate instructor.

Yes, as I understand it Placido Yambao is originally from Pampanga. Master Galang's instructor was GM Carrungay (sp?)

John J
www.swacom.com

[loki09789]

Sinawali is recognized as a double WEAPONRY system not limited to double stick. The reason for the common misconception is because a lot of the double-stick techniques/patterns were being referred to as Sinawali (meaning to weave). Master Galang is Pampangueno where the art apparently has it's roots. I forgot who his mentor was but believe his great uncle was Placido Yambao's compadre. One of the greatest components of Sinawali is the use of the sword & scabbard. Bakbakan's website has an article on the origin.

John G. Jacobo
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

In Modern Arnis, and I imagine other systems with Siniwalis, there are names for specific patterns: Double, Single, Heavens,....

Was there a group of FMA's that could be categorized as "Siniwali Arts" that would be "The Single Siniwali System" and such?

Or, was it more like "Siniwali" as a system that introduced various patterns with applications for each?

[Buwaya]

Doc Lengson was Topher Ricketts Karate instructor.

Yes, as I understand it Placido Yambao is originally from Pampanga. Master Galang's instructor was GM Carrungay (sp?)

John J
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)
Thanks John.

[JohnJ]

In Modern Arnis, and I imagine other systems with Siniwalis, there are names for specific patterns: Double, Single, Heavens,....

While this is true, my comments were also in reference to sinawali being taught as merely some double-stick routines rather than emphasizing the principles of coordinated weaving and the development of ambidexterity. All essential attributes that enhance the practitioners understanding to not only utilize 2 weapons in a flowing pattern but also the use of 2 weapons independent of each other.


Was there a group of FMA's that could be categorized as "Siniwali Arts" that would be "The Single Siniwali System" and such?


Not sure but I am fairly certain there are some lesser known systems in the PI that would be categorized as such. I consider classical methods like sword & scabbard and even espada y daga as having the uniqueness to being a system of it's own rather than taught as sub-system/somponent. The shield & spear techhniques of GM Estalilla's Kabaroan system is also very unique.

John J
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

[Rich Parsons]

While this is true, my comments were also in reference to sinawali being taught as merely some double-stick routines rather than emphasizing the principles of coordinated weaving and the development of ambidexterity. All essential attributes that enhance the practitioners understanding to not only utilize 2 weapons in a flowing pattern but also the use of 2 weapons independent of each other.



Not sure but I am fairly certain there are some lesser known systems in the PI that would be categorized as such. I consider classical methods like sword & scabbard and even espada y daga as having the uniqueness to being a system of it's own rather than taught as sub-system/somponent. The shield & spear techhniques of GM Estalilla's Kabaroan system is also very unique.

John J
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)


I agree John, for after learning the classic entries into a Sinawali, then try entering in off the left side, and then also from somewhere in the middle.

This is just an example of what your have already stated.

Thanks for the good points.

[loki09789]

While this is true, my comments were also in reference to sinawali being taught as merely some double-stick routines rather than emphasizing the principles of coordinated weaving and the development of ambidexterity. All essential attributes that enhance the practitioners understanding to not only utilize 2 weapons in a flowing pattern but also the use of 2 weapons independent of each other.



Not sure but I am fairly certain there are some lesser known systems in the PI that would be categorized as such. I consider classical methods like sword & scabbard and even espada y daga as having the uniqueness to being a system of it's own rather than taught as sub-system/somponent. The shield & spear techhniques of GM Estalilla's Kabaroan system is also very unique.

John J
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

Not sure if they were taught to be used this way before, but I see siniwali's as foundation movements that teach continuous motion.

That motion could be applied defensively. We use to refer to this as a 'stick wave' or energy pattern that would divert attacks into a certain direction. Once you knew could successfully divert the attack, you could also what the practical counters should be based on the opponents reaction.

Offensively, it works as a bait game. Use the first motions to force an opponent into a certain set of defensive/counter attack responses and they expose vital areas. Based on experience, you will be able to 'pick your shots' so to speak.

A reasonable analogy would be set piece combat (Napoleonic/PHalanx...) versus Maneuver Warfare (Cavalry tactics, Tank warfare, Light infantry tactics..). Set Piece would be more like classic Karate block and counter punch (in its most basic applications) and FMA/Siniwali would be more like Maneuver Warfare. Both can be effective, but require different training and skill emphasis.

[JohnJ]

Not sure if they were taught to be used this way before, but I see siniwali's as foundation movements that teach continuous motion.

I agree but that is just one aspect. Using the example of double-stick, sinawali is not only about being able to throw a bunch of fluid patterns that pretty much loses it's effectiveness and power a quarter of the way through. It is also the ability to use each weapon independently and effectively. I refer to it as the single "stick of double-stick".

If you look at the upward fig. 8 what we call salok-saboy, what is the focus on the initial movement? The lead weapon is used to parry the oncoming attack while the rear counters underneath. The parry is the most important movement while the rest is a follow-up. Without the initial parry you are simply striking. The same parry is done in single-stick with the counter occupying the line of attack.

[QUOTE]Offensively, it works as a bait game. Use the first motions to force an opponent into a certain set of defensive/counter attack responses and they expose vital areas. Based on experience, you will be able to 'pick your shots' so to speak. [QUOTE]

I agree. A simple way to look at it is from the perspective of 2 righty's playing. A typical initial attack is a no. 1 and as your opponent looks to pick off the strike with a sumbrada, you switch lead and re-counter with a no. from the left side/hand.

John J
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

[loki09789]

I agree but that is just one aspect. Using the example of double-stick, sinawali is not only about being able to throw a bunch of fluid patterns that pretty much loses it's effectiveness and power a quarter of the way through. It is also the ability to use each weapon independently and effectively. I refer to it as the single "stick of double-stick".

If you look at the upward fig. 8 what we call salok-saboy, what is the focus on the initial movement? The lead weapon is used to parry the oncoming attack while the rear counters underneath. The parry is the most important movement while the rest is a follow-up. Without the initial parry you are simply striking. The same parry is done in single-stick with the counter occupying the line of attack.

[QUOTE]Offensively, it works as a bait game. Use the first motions to force an opponent into a certain set of defensive/counter attack responses and they expose vital areas. Based on experience, you will be able to 'pick your shots' so to speak. [QUOTE]

I agree. A simple way to look at it is from the perspective of 2 righty's playing. A typical initial attack is a no. 1 and as your opponent looks to pick off the strike with a sumbrada, you switch lead and re-counter with a no. from the left side/hand.

John J
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

I like what you're saying about using it as a pattern that you can use BUT also finding and recognizing applications that are in the pattern as well. This is the way that I was taught to analyze all the concept movements as well as forms or Kata.

I don't necessarily think that anyone should view Siniwali as a bunch of movements that are only fluid but loose power by the end of the pattern either. That is a matter of how you apply the body behind the movement.

We talk about the concept movement as the basic pattern. That is the 'patty cake' version where players hit sticks or empty hands or what have you based on the pattern. That engrains the fundamental movement and the conceptual understanding of things like "Forehand, cut through to backhand..." or something else. That is the FORM phase of training.

Then we try to emphasize the POWER phase, by having the players learn to time the hands with the hips, legs and shoulder rotations to find that balance between fluidity and power that you were referring to in your post.

When we get to the FOCUS phase, that is when concept shifts to tactical applications. Now we feed attacks to a player and the pattern isn't about tapping stick but using the pattern to defend and counter or set up offensively and then strike the vital targets that are presented when you keep a dynamic tempo.

Lastly comes SPEED. That is the point where the player is focusing on reading the attack, reacting quickly with the pattern with appropriate FORM, POWER, and FOCUS with fast strikes.

It is the basic KENPO progression of technique applied to FMA skills.

[JohnJ]

BUT also finding and recognizing applications that are in the pattern as well.

This is exactly what I said in my second paragraph. The primary or independent applications some which are very subtle is the essence of sinawali. Without knowing how to use them, all the rest of the movements are useless because the follow up strikes rely on it.



That is a matter of how you apply the body behind the movement.

While body mechanics is essential for power, it is not enough to maintain it. The power in each of the strikes will diminish significantly just like a boxer throwing combinations. Your hands will be moving too fast to start at the intial chambering, pivot, points etc. to deliver the same power consistently. Possibly, in the "patty cake" version but not when fighting double-stick. Please understand that I am not dwelling on just power because there are plenty of movements that won't require it within the patterns.


We talk about the concept movement as the basic pattern. That is the FORM phase of training.


Then we try to emphasize the POWER phase,


Lastly comes SPEED.

Yes, the rudimentary development in understanding the concepts of base patterns, mechanics, power, speed etc. are essential.

John J
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

[loki09789]

While body mechanics is essential for power, it is not enough to maintain it.

The power in each of the strikes will diminish significantly just like a boxer throwing combinations.

Your hands will be moving too fast to start at the intial chambering, pivot, points etc. to deliver the same power consistently.

Possibly, in the "patty cake" version but not when fighting double-stick.

Please understand that I am not dwelling on just power because there are plenty of movements that won't require it within the patterns.

John J
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

Here I think we go in different directions.

I think that body mechanics will create the balance of power/fluidity so that there is 'enough' power behind each individual technique when you are applying it in combination. Consider how much power would really be needed to use an edged weapon (sword or knife) to cause dysfunction in a limb or vital area. Of course there won't be as much power behind the strike compared to isolating that strike and focusing all the power into it. When I talk about balancing the power/fluidity elements, it seems to be the same idea that you referred to when you talked about using less for some parts of the pattern and devoting more for others when applying it. Finding that balance - especially in motion and under pressure is definitely higher level skill expression.

When boxers throw combos (and FMA'ers or anyone for that matter), it is with the intent to use the entire combo for a purpose. Same with Siniwalis. Not every strike should be applied with 'maximum' power generation IMO. Jabs could be used to set up 'power shots' in a combo and might not be thrown with 'max power generation' because it is not the main effort of the multi-prong attack.

Upper cuts could be used to finish after using a hook to draw the opponent's hands up to his head. The Hooks to the head would not necessarily get loaded up the way that the Upper cut would.

Balancing power/fluidity, when I am referring to it, is managing your energy resources. You won't have as much to drive into the main effort if you divert too much into the set ups or the baits.

Agreed the "Patty Cake" versions are meant to be used like labs. Work on fundamental movements under a relaxed setting so that you can maximize your technical focus. Then, you throw them into the grinder so they have to find that balance of power/fluidity in a tactical setting.

When I was asking about 'checking strikes' or checking hand applications, would those be what you consider 'non power' movements within the patterns?

I like your emphasis on the tactical/purposes of the patterns. I also like the way you focus on breaking applications out to keep people thinking and observing.

[JohnJ]

When boxers throw combos (and FMA'ers or anyone for that matter), it is with the intent to use the entire combo for a purpose. Same with Siniwalis. Not every strike should be applied with 'maximum' power generation IMO. Jabs could be used to set up 'power shots' in a combo and might not be thrown with 'max power generation' because it is not the main effort of the multi-prong attack.

You are correct. I understand the strategies embedded in combinations and should have clarified. I was speaking more in general of strikes or punches following in rapid succession where power deteriorates.


When I was asking about 'checking strikes' or checking hand applications, would those be what you consider 'non power' movements within the patterns?

I missed your reference of "checking strikes or hand applications"? However, in an effort to address them separately...a subtle movement within a sinawali pattern could be easily described as a cross body parry (sometimes called a wing block) against a thrust. Simultaneously, you would counter with a diagonal strike. Assuming you are in a right lead this is an example of an independent application. On the same token, it is the starting point of redonda (whirlwind) or 3 circular strikes. The intial parry and counter is the the (1) count while the (2) & (3) are the follow- ups. I often see practitioners start the redondas from a dead chambered position i.e. right hand chambered over shoulder, left hand under armpit

It is surprising how so many do not actually know how they got to that position. This is why I stress the importance of understanding the single stick of double-stick. Sounds like a great title for my next video, huh? http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Hand applications or bantay-kamay would be void due to the utilization of 2 weapons. However, as most of us know sinawali training is the most aggressive tool for developing the bantay-kamay for striking, checking etc. And if anything will enhance other 2 weapon combination i.e. espada y daga

John J

[lhommedieu]

loki09789 asked about
'checking strikes' and
'non power' movements within the patterns and JohnJ responded by saying that
...a subtle movement within a sinawali pattern could be easily described as a cross body parry (sometimes called a wing block) against a thrust. Simultaneously, you would counter with a diagonal strike. Assuming you are in a right lead this is an example of an independent application. On the same token, it is the starting point of redonda (whirlwind) or 3 circular strikes. The intial parry and counter is the the (1) count while the (2) & (3) are the follow- ups. He goes on to say that sinawali patterns can enhance one's understanding of espada y daga techiniques.

Something similar happens in the following clip (I keep posting this one on other threads because it shows foundational movement) wherein the initial 'non power' movement is (1) the right cross-body parry with the stick against the opponent’s initial daga thrust while (2) the counter daga thrust and (3) downward diagonal strike with the stick are the follow-ups (and there is also (4) a final thrust with the daga as you step forward, and (5) a gratuitious thrust with the stick).

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/zig_zag_files/zig_zag_example.mpg (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/zig_zag_files/zig_zag_example.mpg)

This isn’t exactly what JohnJ is talking about because his example assumes a cross body parry with the left-stick off the rear leg against the opponent’s right-hand stick thrust (followed by right-hand and left-hand diagonals). But the principle of non-power movements alternating with power movements is the same.

Best,

Steve Lamade

P.S. John - looking forward to that "Single Stick of Double Stick" DVD!

[JohnJ]

Hi Steve,

That is a good example of the parry (point-up) and counter. The other version being would be to parry with the stick point-down.

Thanks for the video link. It's so much easier to show than to describe in writing.

John J

P.S. I am finishing up the script for my 3rd DVD. However, it will not be on Sinawali. The title will be "Defense Methods - Edge Weapon Awareness & Readiness"

[loki09789]

Hi Steve,

That is a good example of the parry (point-up) and counter. The other version being would be to parry with the stick point-down.

Thanks for the video link. It's so much easier to show than to describe in writing.

John J

P.S. I am finishing up the script for my 3rd DVD. However, it will not be on Sinawali. The title will be "Defense Methods - Edge Weapon Awareness & Readiness"


How would that vid clip be termed in 'siniwali' categories?

Does the Stick and Daggar motion ever get translated to stick and empty hand or empty hand and knife/empty hand period?

The powerful element IMO to siniwali practice is the translation of the pattern into different tactical applications. Of course that will require some tweaking to specificy things to fit the range, weapon nature (edged, striking, wt., stiffness...) along with skill and strength/stamina of the player.

I focus on Self Defense applications, so I don't really get bent out of shape if I don't 'master' any one particular weapon with a siniwali pattern as long as I 'master' the ability to adapt and flow with what ever is at hand.

If I can do Double Siniwali for example with a tire iron, broken bottel, rock, stick, empty hand, ....rope/belt, hands and feet.....as the application tools, then I feel more self defense prepared than if I master only one weapon with the pattern. Weapon specialization/mastery was a big deal when I was in the service, but that was a different point in my life. As an average Civvy now, I think it is more important to be skilled at adaptability than specialization.

[JohnJ]

How would that vid clip be termed in 'siniwali' categories?

Very simple. The clip was in relation to my post regarding redonda. It demontrated one of the parries that can be used to position yourself for the follow up. As the opponents dagger is parried in right lead with the stick, a follow up thrust and strike is executed. This is an example of the 3-count redonda (whirlwind, circular) pattern of sinawali.


Does the Stick and Daggar motion ever get translated to stick and empty hand or empty hand and knife/empty hand period?

Yes. As mentioned, sinawali as a training tool is one of the best methods to improve coordination and ambidexterity. And to use both hands equally well is something to always aspire for especially in combat. Of course many of the movements can translate from weapons to empty-hands and it is not necessary to deviate much from what you are doing with the weapons as long as you understand the principles & strategies behind them.

IMO...stick & dagger is the highest form of double weaponry because a practitioner must thoroughly understand how to move in and out of all ranges while utilizing the appropriate weapon effectively whether for offense or defense. Further to this, one must be able to adapt the weapon useage. i.e. punyos in close range



I focus on Self Defense applications, so I don't really get bent out of shape if I don't 'master' any one particular weapon with a siniwali pattern as long as I 'master' the ability to adapt and flow with what ever is at hand. If I can do Double Siniwali for example with a tire iron, broken bottel, rock, stick, empty hand, ....rope/belt, hands and feet.....as the application tools, then I feel more self defense prepared than if I master only one weapon with the pattern. Weapon specialization/mastery was a big deal when I was in the service, but that was a different point in my life. As an average Civvy now, I think it is more important to be skilled at adaptability than specialization.

Agreed. As one should always focus on combat application even if sport combat oriented. It is not about mastering a weapon or category or combinations nor is it all about patterns.

Refer to my second paragraph.

John J

[loki09789]

IMO...stick & dagger is the highest form of double weaponry because a practitioner must thoroughly understand how to move in and out of all ranges while utilizing the appropriate weapon effectively whether for offense or defense. Further to this, one must be able to adapt the weapon useage. i.e. punyos in close range


Refer to my second paragraph.

John J

Good point about Stick and Dagger as a skills training device.

When I was in the service, training time was planned out over the course of a whole year. Because we were dealing with a perspective where individual skills, team skills, squad, platoon, and company size operations had to be planned; we usually started with considering the end goal. We would look at what the big (Company) training exercise was going to be first.

Once that was clarified, we would work backwards down to the individual skills. We would try to plan training so that the simulations and mini exercises would all require the same basic skills that needed to be in place for the end goal (Company Size Operation).

I like that you are viewing and teaching stick and dagger in an equivalent to the "Company Operation" and breaking out the 'individual' skills that have to be in place to be good at that end goal. That can be used as a common reference when you translate movements/tactics and applications from the Stick and Dagger to other weapons or applications.

[JohnJ]

I like that you are viewing and teaching stick and dagger in an equivalent to the "Company Operation" and breaking out the 'individual' skills that have to be in place to be good at that end goal. That can be used as a common reference when you translate movements/tactics and applications from the Stick and Dagger to other weapons or applications.

Quite often practitioners and even instructors fixate on movements/techniques without emphasis on principles, strategies and concepts. While they are quick to demonstrate these so-called skills, they end up lacking the knowledge to apply in scenarios outside the realm of drills etc.

Thanks for sharing your Military experiences and how it relates to training methods and progression.

John J

[lhommedieu]

... I am finishing up the script for my 3rd DVD. However, it will not be on Sinawali. The title will be "Defense Methods - Edge Weapon Awareness & Readiness"


Looking forward to seeing it.

Best,

Steve