Doce Pares Lineage. [Archive]

arnisador

10-31-2005, 11:13 AM

bart

11-09-2005, 05:16 PM

I've heard it said that most of the better-known FMAs that are still extant today trace their roots back to Doce Pares in one way or another. I think this is an exaggeration, but I wonder: What are the currently practiced arts that descend from Doce Pares?
I don't think it's an exaggeration, direct relationships are found with:

Balintawak
Modern Arnis
MigSuneDo
Eskrido
Pekiti Tirsia

There are a lot of arts which claimed ties to Doce Pares prior to GM Diony Canete and GM Cacoy Canete coming to the US to teach. Most notably those were Villabrille Kali and Serrada. GM Villabrille even claimed to have been a champion and founding member by some accounts although he was never in any of the club records. Felicimo Dizon who trained Angel Cabales claimed to be in Doce Pares although there were no records of him there as anything but an observer at a match or two. So there was some exaggeration. Although since the early 1990's those claims have been redirected to a hitherto unknown "other" Doce Pares club. That may be the case.

Doce Pares isn't the wellspring of all of the FMA but it has had influence on a lot of styles even when it wasn't a direct relation such as in:

Black Eagle
Inosanto Blend
Visayan Eskrima
Lapunti Arnis de Abanico
Dekiti Tirsia
Arnis Presas

Doce Pares as a collection of styles has evolved over the years and there were always many branches. Although Balintawak or Modern Arnis might not look like a Doce Pares you've seen, there are many Doce Pares you haven't. Plus what it looks like now may not be what it looked like in the past.

Black Grass

11-09-2005, 07:33 PM

bart

11-09-2005, 09:24 PM

Black Grass

11-09-2005, 09:35 PM

bart

11-09-2005, 09:39 PM

Bart,

Please eloborate on the relationship between Pekiti Tirsia/Dekiti Tirsia and Doce Pares. I have read claims that PT/DT knife came from DP, but after seeing some DP knife, I frankly don't believe it. BTW I am not a Pekiti player so I have no agenda here.

Vince
aka Black Grass
Bakabakan International

When you say you've seen Doce Pares knife, who's knife have you seen? There is a big difference between Doce Pares groups. The knife of DP Multi-style has a different emphasis than the San Miguel Doce Pares. GM Cacoy's DP knife is also going to have it's own flavor.

Although they may seem completely different now doesn't mean that they don't share roots. They've all developed over the years, but at one point they touched base.

bart

11-09-2005, 09:46 PM

Bart,

Kewl pic.

Can you put into context what is going on here, I think thats Momoy and Gaje. Are you saying that Pekti came from Doce Pares or that Doce Pares has influenced Pekiti and if so in what way?

Vince
aka Black Grass
Bakbakan International

I'm just trying to point out that they touched base. That is GM Momoy and GM Gaje. That was taken when Pekiti Tirsia had not yet been revealed to the world. At that time, Leo Gaje was just another guy taking eskrima lessons. He was present at a lot of Doce Pares training sessions and events. He may not give credit to Doce Pares, but you can't go to those things and not be influenced.

Epa

11-10-2005, 10:52 AM

I have heard from a variety of sources that there are or at least were several Doce Pares organizations in the Philippines. The most famous is the Cebu Doce Pares Club which this thread has focused on so far. Guro Dan Inosanto has mentioned at least two other Doce Pares clubs, one was in the Laguna region of Luzon. Presumably, this is the club connected with Felicismo Dizon (sp?) since he spent much of his life in Luzon. I had not heard of the Villabrille connection to Laguna Doce Pares before, but it's a possibility since Dizon cornered for Villabrille in all of his stick fights after 1921 that were in the Philippines(according to Guro Inosanto). I have also seen a reference to an Agapito Ilustrisimo in connection with the Laguna Doce Pares, but I don't know if there is a family relation or just a coincidence. I believe there is one instructor who claims ties to the Laguna Doce Pares who is teaching in the US. His name is Abundio Baet and his website is http://www.garimot.com/abon.htm. I assume there are other instructors that are connected to this Doce Pares Club.
Guro Inosanto also mentioned a Doce Pares club in the Visayas (aside from the Cebu club). He said that his instructor Juanito Lacoste trained with them and they were more of a secret group. I'm not sure if they're even around to day. He mentioned that they were connected with the Illongos (I don't know if that is a tribe, a region, a dialect or what, but that's the name I remember him saying). I have no direct sources regarding this group and don't know if they still exist. Also, do you have any more on the Pekiti/Doce Pares connection?

Hope that helps,
Eric

loki09789

11-10-2005, 11:34 AM

I have heard from a variety of sources that there are or at least were several Doce Pares organizations in the Philippines....
Hope that helps,
Eric

I have read many posts that described the Doce Pares organization as a 'club' that had various instructors and students that were distinct from one another, but were all training in the same location.

Does this mean that the clubhouse was common use and different people used it at different times (like time sharing or sub leasing a martial arts school from another martial artist)? There would be some cross training, but people would mainly train with their chosen instructor?

Or

Does this mean that everyone showed up on the same schedule and were doing their own thing somewhere on the floor while others were somewhere else on the floor?

Either way it seems like it would be very difficult to discern between 'direct student' and 'trained with' or what ever for a family tree in any 'official' fashion.

Epa

11-10-2005, 01:02 PM

Loki,

I'm not sure if I understood what you're asking for, but I'll try my best. In my post, I was saying that there were other Filipino Martial Arts groups (clubs whatever you want to call them) that used the name Doce Pares that were not affiliated in any documented way with the Doce Pares Club of Cebu (the club founded by the Canete Brothers and Saavedras (sp?) as well as several other Cebuano Eskrimadors).
The other two clubs that I mentioned were not on the same islands as the Canete Doce Pares. One is on Laguna, on the island of Luzon. I was not given a location for the other. I know it is in the Visayan region and was assoicated with the Illongo (again I'm not sure if that's an ethnic group, language or location). So I don't think these Doce Pares could rightfully be considered off shoots of the Cebu Doce Pares. In fact, there's no evidence to suggest that these groups were aware of each other. They all just happened to use the same name.
Maybe it's more than a coincidence and players from one club moved and continued practicing, I simply don't have enough information to confirm or deny that. At this point, there seems to be no solid link between any of these groups. As Bart pointed out, Dizon was only a spectator at one or two matches assoicated with the Cebu Doce Pares so there seems to be no direct link there. At this point, there only seems to be a connection between the names of the ogranizations.
As far as the organization of the Doce Pares club in Cebu. I have no idea how they organized their practice or what format they used. Bart could probably answer that better than I could. I hope that made sense.

Eric

loki09789

11-10-2005, 01:05 PM

Loki,

As far as the organization of the Doce Pares club in Cebu. I have no idea how they organized their practice or what format they used. Bart could probably answer that better than I could. I hope that made sense.

Eric

Eric,

I was asking how the Canete/Saveedra Doce Pares club operated on a daily basis.

The 'many instructors under one roof' ideas has been mentioned many times. I was just wondering what that looked like in action.

bart

11-10-2005, 06:01 PM

Hey There,

From what I've been told the Doce Pares club in Cebu City was organized to be a gym where eskrimadors could get together and practice. It was a sort of neutral ground where they were supposed to be able to exchange ideas and such. It wasn't a scheduled type of thing like a modern day karate school. It did have set work out times and meetings where people signed in, but it was also open most of the time and people came to work out. Membership was certainly controlled.

There were factions within the Doce Pares club and they eventually wound their way into organized styles led by a particular teacher or group. The Canetes and the Saavedras were the most widely known entities, but there were others such as Anciong Bacon and Inting Carin. Some of course split off and did their own thing. And there were practioners and styles that didn't join or participate in the Doce Pares club. Black Eagle would be a good example.

Cebu City is a hub of trade. As such, the people who lived there often took work in other places. The same goes today. So some of the practicioners would leave and go to other parts of the Philippines and create a satelite of the Doce Pares club in Cebu. It may be controversial, but there is a good chance that the other Doce Pares clubs that are referred to may be one of those clubs. Also, as the Doce Pares Club became popular and well known it came to be recognized as yet another synonym for the weapon based fma. The other "outside of Cebu" Doce Pares groups around could have been simply using the lingua franca of the day to reference their art.

Aside from Gat Puno Baet, the references to a Luzon Doce Pares don't begin to be revealed from Serada and Villabrille groups until the mid 1980's after there was a big influx of Philippines based FMA teachers who traveled to the US. In fact Cabales, Villabrille, and others taught that the FMA were dying or dead in the Philippines when in all actuality, they had been thriving and continuing to develop.

One thing is for sure and that is that the Doce Pares Club in Cebu City kept written records. They were in the newspapers and in news and sports radio broadcasts. They had elections for their heirarchy. They held fights and tournaments. They held social functions. They had large membership that branched off into different styles and into different clubs. They documented events and were documented by other entities.

Mostly the other Doce Pares legends are just that, legends. The evidence is mainly testimonial and in testimony from the same people who related fantastic tales of blind princesses and mechanized tunnels of death, people who swore up and down that there was no more eskrima in the Philippines.

lhommedieu

11-11-2005, 11:26 AM

Bart Hubbard is correct when he says that Leo Gaje’s Pekiti Tirsia Kali may have been influenced by his exposure to Momoy Canete and his expression of Doce Pares Eskrima (San Miguel Eskrima). For example, a comparison of SME’s “Downward” pattern has basic similarities with PTK’s “Espada y Daga – Attack #5” (which can be interpreted as a variation taken from the first set of Seguidas):

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/downward_files/downward_application_example.mpg (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/downward_files/downward_application_example.mpg)

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/pekiti_files/attack_5.mpg (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/pekiti_files/attack_5.mpg)

In is interesting to note however that Leo Gaje began training at the age of six with his grandfather and other seniors in his village in Occidental Negros in what was essentially a family art; the picture of Leo and Momoy that Bart has provided shows Leo as a young man (possibly in his ‘30’s?). It is not uncommon for accomplished martial artists to travel to train with senior masters to “round out” their education, and one wonders what other individuals GM Gaje sought out during this period of his life as well?

There are moreover differences between Pekiti Tirsia Kali and San Miguel Eskrima that deserve mention: (1) there is a difference in psychological orientation insofar as many aspects of SME resemble a “white-hot duelist’s art” (SME has many qualities of the Xing Yi Quan maxim that one looks upon the opponent as an eagle up the sky looks upon its prey), whereas PTK has more of a “red-hot, attack your village, raze it to the ground, and salt the fields” feel to it – at least in my opinion. (2) The footwork patterns can be very different, especially with respect to the use of the side-step and body-torque to generate speed and power in PTK. (3) The length of the weapons in each respective art tend to be different, and this influences the angling, distancing, body-mechanics, techniques, and tactics of each art to various degrees. The sword most likely used in SME is the pinute (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga.htm (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga.htm)), which can be a longer sword (up to about 33") capable of both thrusting and cutting and is probably influenced by European sword design. This is probably why the “Espada y Daga” drills of SME translate so well to sabre and (for training purposes) rapier-sword and dagger (instead of surrogate wooden training weapons). See for example:

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/discussion_about_espada_y_daga.mpg (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/discussion_about_espada_y_daga.mpg)

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/rapier_and_dagger.mpg (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/rapier_and_dagger.mpg)

On the other hand, the sword most probably used in PKT is the gununting (Cf. http://www.maelstromcore.com/weapons/ for an example), although a bolo and even a barong (Cf. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/swords/barong/barong.htm for an example) can also be used for close-quarter slashing and thrusting. See the following clip for a discussion of how weapon length can influence the stylistic differences between Filipino martial arts:

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/pekiti_files/weapon_length.mpg (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/pekiti_files/weapon_length.mpg)

Best,

Steve Lamade

Buwaya

11-12-2005, 01:01 PM

I don't think it's an exaggeration, direct relationships are found with:

Balintawak
Modern Arnis
MigSuneDo
Eskrido
Pekiti Tirsia

There are a lot of arts which claimed ties to Doce Pares prior to GM Diony Canete and GM Cacoy Canete coming to the US to teach. Most notably those were Villabrille Kali and Serrada. GM Villabrille even claimed to have been a champion and founding member by some accounts although he was never in any of the club records. Felicimo Dizon who trained Angel Cabales claimed to be in Doce Pares although there were no records of him there as anything but an observer at a match or two. So there was some exaggeration. Although since the early 1990's those claims have been redirected to a hitherto unknown "other" Doce Pares club. That may be the case.

Doce Pares isn't the wellspring of all of the FMA but it has had influence on a lot of styles even when it wasn't a direct relation such as in:

Black Eagle
Inosanto Blend
Visayan Eskrima
Lapunti Arnis de Abanico
Dekiti Tirsia
Arnis Presas

Doce Pares as a collection of styles has evolved over the years and there were always many branches. Although Balintawak or Modern Arnis might not look like a Doce Pares you've seen, there are many Doce Pares you haven't. Plus what it looks like now may not be what it looked like in the past.
Bart, Do you know if GM Villibrilles claim is anywhere in print? Like in Inosanto's book or one of Villibrille or GM Largusa's various articles?

Wouldn't Lapunti be categorized as a direct influence? I always understood that GM Filemon Caburney was a original Doce Pares member and a student of the Savedras as well as former sparring partners with GM Momoy Canete.

Buwaya

11-12-2005, 01:33 PM

In is interesting to note however that Leo Gaje began training at the age of six with his grandfather and other seniors in his village in Occidental Negros in what was essentially a family art; the picture of Leo and Momoy that Bart has provided shows Leo as a young man (possibly in his ‘30’s?). It is not uncommon for accomplished martial artists to travel to train with senior masters to “round out” their education, and one wonders what other individuals GM Gaje sought out during this period of his life as well?

The sword most likely used in SME is the pinute (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga.htm (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga.htm)), which can be a longer sword (up to about 33") capable of both thrusting and cutting and is probably influenced by European sword design. This is probably why the “Espada y Daga” drills of SME translate so well to sabre and (for training purposes) rapier-sword and dagger (instead of surrogate wooden training weapons). See for example:

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/discussion_about_espada_y_daga.mpg (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/discussion_about_espada_y_daga.mpg)

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/rapier_and_dagger.mpg (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/espada_y_daga_files/rapier_and_dagger.mpg)

On the other hand, the sword most probably used in PKT is the gununting (Cf. http://www.maelstromcore.com/weapons/ for an example), although a bolo and even a barong (Cf. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/swords/barong/barong.htm for an example) can also be used for close-quarter slashing and thrusting. See the following clip for a discussion of how weapon length can influence the stylistic differences between Filipino martial arts:

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/pekiti_files/weapon_length.mpg (http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/pekiti_files/weapon_length.mpg)

Best,

Steve Lamade
GM Gaje and GM Nene Tortal in addition to training with GM Conrado Tortal, also trained with their relative Jose Lamayo Vinas, GM of Lapu-Lapu Vinas Arnis of Bacolod city. Not to be confused with GM Hermino Binas of Binas Dynamic Arnis, who I understand GM Nene Tortal did not train with, contrary to Philippine Martial Culture.

Cool clips. I love watching GM Momoy's art. I've been told that GM Momoy's sword of choice was not the pinuti, but the straight Espada? Can someone verify this? Bart? Steve?

The barung is not indigenous to Negros and is not a PTK weapon. Most Tausug, Sama, Yakan would probably be annoyed or apalled to see a PTK practitioner using a barung. Negros has their own version of a barong called a plamingko, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=809 , as you can see it has a distinct blade form.

lhommedieu

11-12-2005, 10:09 PM

Nice swords - and thanks for the clarification re. the barong. One of my teachers trained in PT and just likes the barong as it works well for his purposes. He'd be pretty annoyed to be told that he couldn't play with it but I guess that's just the nature of some Filipino martial artists...The plamingko is a very pretty weapon - I wouldn't mind owning one.

Haven't heard about Momoy's preference for the espada over the pinute. Is the espada something like a rapier-sword? I saw some of these when I was in Italy a couple of summers ago.

Re. the pinute: I was told that they put a back edge on the last couple of inches for sunkete strikes, and that there were other swords that actually hooked back from the tip specifically for this purpose...

Best,

Steve

Buwaya

11-13-2005, 04:01 AM

lhommedieu

11-13-2005, 08:41 AM

I think that it's a stick (I have a larger, print version in my office that I'll look at).

Still, a long, narrow, straight sword makes sense.

Best,

Steve

Buwaya

11-13-2005, 03:04 PM

I think that it's a stick (I have a larger, print version in my office that I'll look at).

Still, a long, narrow, straight sword makes sense.

Best,

Steve

Lolz! I think your right. I mistook his index finger for the sword guard. http://www.eskrima.nl/nieuw/d/eskrimashopd.htm . Scroll down, #K7.

lhommedieu

11-13-2005, 03:20 PM

Re. K7 - yes, that makes sense - a light, straight sword - capable of cutting and thrusting. Still, I'd like a wider guard (see my post under "videos").

Most of the pinute's that I've seen seem a little shorter and heavier than what I'd like, although the 32 1/2 inch espada available through Cas Iberia (in the espada y daga set #SR526) seems acceptable. Probably a little heavier than if there were a real one based on the practice sword you mention and there's more belly at the end of the blade for larga distance cuts. I think that I'm going to ask for this one for Christmas.

Best,

Steve Lamade

arnisador

11-13-2005, 11:02 PM

I'm getting the impression that there really is a great diversity in Doce Pares styles, and that that was true from the beginning!

loki09789

11-14-2005, 01:38 PM

Hey There,

From what I've been told the Doce Pares club in Cebu City was organized to be a gym where eskrimadors could get together and practice. It was a sort of neutral ground where they were supposed to be able to exchange ideas and such. It wasn't a scheduled type of thing like a modern day karate school. It did have set work out times and meetings where people signed in, but it was also open most of the time and people came to work out. Membership was certainly controlled.

There were factions within the Doce Pares club and they eventually wound their way into organized styles led by a particular teacher or group. The Canetes and the Saavedras were the most widely known entities, but there were others such as Anciong Bacon and Inting Carin. Some of course split off and did their own thing. And there were practioners and styles that didn't join or participate in the Doce Pares club. Black Eagle would be a good example.

This sounds pretty consistent with the info from Warrior Arts of the Phillipines(Galang):

One of the first major Eskrima schools in Cebu was the ‘Labangon Fencing Club’ of the 1920s. The
Saavedra family, specifically Lorenzo Saavedra, his nephews, Teodoro and Frederico Saavedra, and the
older Cañete brothers were the main influence and force behind it. Venancio Bacon was one of the
Saavedras’ students and a close family friend. Lorenzo "Tatay Ensong" Saavedra is credited with the
organization of the Labangon Fencing Club.
The Labangon Fencing Club was originally composed of six different groups from different styles of
Eskrima. In the late 1920s, due supposedly to political infighting between members and the indifferent
attitude of other members, the Labangon club floundered. There was a lot of disagreement and
contention between these diverse groups. Eventually, to avoid conflict between the disparate groups,
a strict schedule in order to separate the groups was kept and adhered to.
Later in 1932, the Saavedras and Cañetes became founding members of another Eskrima club, the
now famous, ‘Doce Pares’. The new club, composed of some of the old Labangon club members,
wanted to create a new identity and to de-localize the name of their new club by avoiding the old
name of ‘Labangon’, this being the name of a suburb of Cebu. The members wanted to give the club
a more dramatic and easily recognizable name. Some older Eskrimadors from Cebu believe the older
club simply evolved and adopted the new name ‘Doce Pares’. Others claim that this name came about
because of the number of participants present during the initial meeting.

Looks like the 'contentions' followed the L.Fencing members to the Doce Pares club.

Also explains how so many groups claim roots at the Doce Pares club yet have so many different Lineage threads. Note the Saavedra/Bacon connection. I am sure that these people did cross train (an not just scrap with each other) and influenced each other too, though.

Rich Parsons

11-14-2005, 04:17 PM

Looks like the 'contentions' followed the L.Fencing members to the Doce Pares club.

Also explains how so many groups claim roots at the Doce Pares club yet have so many different Lineage threads. Note the Saavedra/Bacon connection. I am sure that these people did cross train (an not just scrap with each other) and influenced each other too, though.

I never said that Bacon never trained with Saavedra. I never said, that he did not gain knowledge from his training with others.

What I said was that GM Bacon modified and optimized his training for stick fighting, and he never knew a sinawali, or other twirls. So even though he may have been influenced, this does not mean that he took that influence into his system of Self Defense, that became known as Balintawak. He would look at it to know how to counter it, but did not necessarily put a specific technique into his bag of tricks.

Confused by your point here.

loki09789

11-14-2005, 04:32 PM

Confused by your point here.

I was making a point about how different looking styles, instructors and lineages could all claim connection to Doce Pares.

The idea that there were different factions and that they all didn't necessarily train together or even at the same time, though they shared the same building.

The Saveedra/Bacon lineage was an example of how that thread of connection does not seem to include the Canetes even though they are credited as founders of the L.Fencing and the Doce Pares clubs.

Hope that clarifies the use of details for you.

lhommedieu

11-15-2005, 09:28 AM

loki09789

11-15-2005, 11:52 AM

I made a post on www.martialtalk.com (http://www.martialtalk.com) a while ago that addresses this point. I've ammended it to make it clearer:

"...For example, a friend of mine asked me recently why I thought that Momoy Canete's San Miguel Eskrima and Bacon's Balintawak looked so different, in spite of the fact that they trained together and both learned from the Saavedras. One thing that came to mind was that Momoy's art...remained anchored in a sword-duelist's mentality, while Bacon's art was forged through stick fights in the halls and streets of Cebu...

...There is also the factor that in Filipino martial arts the type of "duel" that took place during the last century or so (with many exceptions) in the Philippines was done with hardwood sticks instead of blades. A reliance on powerful strikes with the end of a hardwood stick to bony targets is obviously going to change the kinds of techniques that are utilized in Filipino arts [that favor bladed weapons]...

Best,

Steve Lamade

I have heard stories of cheating (at least by our standards) in these duels too. People that brought guns and knives to stick duels or ambushed each other by tieing a knife to a shaft to turn it into a spear and stabbing someone while standing on a roof....

The thing to remember is that these people were not angels or 'warriors' in the sense that they were living a warriors code/soldiers code. They were dueling each other and hiring out to bust strikes or protect striking workers, they were hiring out to do dock security, and they were not wealthy. Using these arts was a different matter for them than 'combative' arts might have been. Surviving their world or supplementing a substandard income/unemployment created a different set of social rules for them. It also created a serious gap between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' where the 'haves' would associate FMA with thugs and hoodlums. THat is what GM Presas is given credit for changing later in history.

Again, I am not saying this in judgement or to dishonor these people as artists or men. I am making these observations because these things impacted the arts as much as any clinical systematic development.

Even the prison term that V.Bacon served could have had a philosophical impact on Balintawak and therefore impacted the training. From what I see all over the internet and from Ted Buot's students as well as my contact with Bobby Taboada, Balintawak is now promoted as "Defense" art. Systematically that makes sense to teach, but it could have become even more important to make philosophically clear after V.Bacon served a prison term. Much like the local Buffalo lawyers are all advertising with "Integrity" ads after Cellino of Cellino and Barnes had his law license suspended for improper practices. Promote the good things to improve the image and avoid future problems by changing the curricular objectives.

In our current program, we vigorously reinforce local use of force/deadly force laws when we teach because it is a realistic consideration when you have to deal with the full spectrum of society and violence. In less 'civilized' times (Read "sue happy culture"), that may not have been such a big deal when you trained.

The Saavedra prison term affected the art stylistically because of the interaction with a Euro/French Fencer and could have affected it administratively too. The process of taking on and training new students for instance.

"Lorenzo Saavedra was considered the patriarch of Doce Pares Club which was then called the Labanongon Fencing Club. He was born around 1852, I'm not exactly sure of the date, but it's around middle of 19th century. He was incarcerated for rebellion by the Spanish colonial authorities. During his incarceration, he was taught stick fighting by a French man. Now, this story is rather ambiguous and was only handed down by word of mouth by the next generation of Saavedras." (email interview with Celestino Macachor of Cebu Eskrima Society, Cebu City, Phillipines).

The idea that the "Master instructor" doesn't see a student without proper introductions from someone already 'in' the group, and the practice of junior instructors teaching students before they get to the Master instructor is very common in the Euro Fencing culture as well. I don't know if that was practiced in the same way in FMA's that don't have as much Euro/Christian influence. There is a book on Sicillian Knife fighting that talks about the 'introduction process' of training that is exactly the same as has been mentioned in some Euro/FMA influenced practices. I could see where similiarities could be coincident, but not to that level of exactness.

The only thing I remember from Roberto Torres is that the FMA/Indo instructors (Kun Tao or other more Asian influenced arts) were usually in a village. You made introductions (sometimes through a common associate, sometimes not), brought a small gift of thanks and respect (usually an indulgence or even rice) to the prospective instructor, and made sure that you adhered to any gestures of respect. One thing that Roberto Torres mentioned was that showing the soles of your feet was considered bad form and could either get you kicked out or even stuck in a duel if the insult was interpretted harsh enough because of other slips.

I imagine that each of the various Doce Pares instructor/student processes were as unique as the movement styles and lineages.

Pat OMalley

02-13-2006, 07:04 PM

To raise a point made earlier, Lapunti has obviously been influenced by Doce Pares, as both Filimon's Canete and Caburnay were known to have trained together when they were under the same banner.
I have been lucky in 1994 I had some brief lessons with the lat GM Momoy Canete and I have trained a lot with GM Ondo Caburnay, when you see both syles you can see the similarities as opposed to the differences.

Now training with GM Diony he is one of those unique individuals who can show you the 12 styles that made up the Original Doce Pares club.

I also think that were some confusion is comming from with referance to other DP clubs, you have to remember that they are in-fact the oldest club in the Philippines and the original members were also responsible for setting up the Labangon fencing club back in 1921. Over time people travel for many reasons, but mainly for economic reasons and many of these individuals would have set up satelite clubs where ever they decide to reside and obviously they would have used the name Doce Pares as that is what in fact they where.

Yes there were individuals who claimed that the FMA was dead in the Philippines, but sure they made these calims for economic reason too and maybe a few did this so as not to arouse suspicion as to there background in the arts. Lets be honest even today we have individuals who claim to know the FMA just because the are Filipino when in truth they are looking for a fast buck, we have that in all arts. How many people do you know that naturally assume a Karate instructor must be good if he is Japanese. He could be like some Westerners just a con man.

The one thing I have always noticed when training at the Doce Pares HQ in Cebu is just how varied the instruction is, each instructor has their own special flavour if you like, they like to specialise in a particular area and teach from that stand point, that is not to say they do not know or are not experts in the other areas, it is just that they prefer certain areas over others, this in turn will influence any students that they teach and in time each instructors student may well look as thogh they are doing different styles when in fact all they are doing is being influenced my one or two portions more thatn the other areas of the style if you like. But that I feel is what makes Doce Pares quite unique in it's self.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Best regards

Pat

lhommedieu

10-16-2006, 09:16 PM

Pat,

Just saw the following clips on youtube (http://www.fmaforum.org/index.php?showtopic=1067).

The similarities between Momoy Canete's and Ondo Caburnay's styles are pretty clear. I would say that Ondo Cabernay is a more upright, corto/medio style fighter - but you can see the the lines of attack and the attitude are very similar.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Pat OMalley

01-20-2007, 03:31 PM

Well It think the upright thing would have come when GM Filimon Caburnay left in 1972 to form Lapunti, he was a sparring partner of Momoy but also after 1972 he was close freinds with Jonny Chuiten and they exchanged ideas. So some Balintawak influence in his style, but then again all Doce Pares in one form or another.

But yes the heavy influence of San Miguel is very clear, I was training with GM Kano this year and just some of the things he done made something finally click in my head, I knew I had seen a lot of the movement before, just a slightley different version.

Best regards

Pat

stickmaster2000

05-04-2007, 07:09 AM

Its interesting that many of the top eskrima masters have in-fact trained at the Doce Pares Headquarters School in Cebu City at some time or another. (remember the school was founded in 1932) and was renowned as being the best of the best.

I have had the privilage of viewing a large number of archive photos (not just from the Canete family but from other top Doce Pares players from previous generations (including the San Miguel faction) and I have seen many of these masters in the photos and on old celuloid film happily training.

It is unfortunate that many seem to have memory failure once they leave the Philippines and found their own styles/systems.

arnisador

05-04-2007, 09:29 AM

It's my understanding that a lot of major styles of FMA have their origins in Doce Pares.

But, it's also my understanding that forming one's own art is not frowned upon, as long as one gives credit where credit is due!

408kali

05-04-2007, 02:40 PM

From what I understand there is no direct relation between the aforementioned Doce Pares organizations, but if I may add what I have read/heard from various reliable sources, there actually was an older Doce Pares organization, the one which Dizon affiliated himself with. Again, no relation to what we now know as Doce Pares. We have been discussing this subject matter in the Eskrima Digest.

stickmaster2000

05-06-2007, 03:52 AM

I agree completely. Forming ones own style is part of the culture of FMA and many varied and interesting systems and styles have evolved over the generations as a result of that culture. But as you say, giving credit to those you have learnt from and spent time with is important.

Master Vince

09-27-2007, 12:58 AM

Hi Guys, I have studied the Cacoy Doce Pares Eskrima system under the very watchful eye of the great Grand Master Ciriaco 'Cacoy' Canete and I have been a student of his for over 20 years now, and the one way that I would like to describe HIS version of the Doce Pares Eskrima, is that he will really concentrate on the 'CORTO" range of sparring, which is very close, and Manong Cacoy teaches his students to manoevre their olisi with minimal space to move, and we also focus on parrying and trapping both the weapon hand and the alive empty hand, so we are trying to neutralise both weapons that another fighter may present, and once we've gained the rite control of their two limbs, then we produce a flurry of strikes all over their body that will render the person helpless, and then we perform a disarm, followed by a lock, and then we apply a nice take down technique, which is followed by a control technique using the olisi for leverage when an attacker is on the ground!(Its close combat style!)

Master Vince

09-27-2007, 07:09 PM

Great call Bro, all the styles have evolved, and they are all very combative!

Master Vince

09-27-2007, 07:12 PM

I definately think that there was some interaction between the eskrima clubs in Cebu at some stage in the 1930's, but then people went off a commenced their own clubs and organisations, this is human nature, but we have seen so many great styles come from it now!

Master Vince

10-05-2007, 08:45 PM

My instructor is an 88 year old Supreme Grand Master of the 12th Dan rank, he lives in the city of Cebu which is in the Philippines, and he's world famous because of his 100 Death Matches in the 1940's, 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's!
(He won all of the no-rules stickfights, and he never killed anyone!)

The great BRUCE LEE even knew about this Filipino Stickfighting legend!

My Grand Master is linked by blood lineage to Rajah Lapu Lapu, and the great Lapu Lapu is the man that killed Spanish explorer Ferdinand Magellan at the battle of Mactan Island in 1521, when the first fleet of Spanish tried to invade and conquer the Philippines, but it was because of the man Rajah Lapu Lapu and his many Filipino warriors that fought against the very first attempt of the Spanish to invade the Philippines.

The Filipino men only had fire hardened rattan sticks, spears and hand made knives and swords to fight against the advanced weapons of the Spaniards which consisted of Cannons, Rifles, Pistols and Sabre swords.

And yet the Filipino warriors won the first epic battle because of their shear spirit and determination.

Rajah Lapu Lapu had the final showdown of that battle when he fought against the leader of that Spanish expedition, explorer Ferdinand Magellan.

Rajah Lapu Lapu and Ferdinand Magellan fought eachother on the shores of the beach on the Island of Mactan, and it was there that Lapu Lapu killed Magellan, then he slashed at his enemy's head with his own hand made sword called a Filipino Kampilan, and it cut the explorer's head off, then the battle stopped momentarily as Lapu Lapu held up Magellan's head to his people as he yelled these words, "I bow before no Spanish King, my allegiance is only to my people!

The crowd of warriors roared as the Spanish invaders fled back to their boats, and all left the Island!

Lapu Lapu is described by a Spanish chronicle writer, Antonio Pigafetta, as using a superior form of stick and knife fighting that the natives called Pangolisi. (Filipino Stickfighting)

Lapu Lapu was the first acknowledged Master of Filipino Stickfighting, and the art was passed down from father to son, from generation to generation, and the blood line went directly back to the great Lapu Lapu, because they were direct decendants of this great man!

Grand Master Cacoy Canete was taught the Pangolisi by his father and uncles, and it was them who were taught by their father in turn, and so on rite back to the time of the Cebu Chieftain Lapu Lapu!

When Grand Master Cacoy Canete walks down the street in his neighbourhood of San Nicholas, of Cebu City in the Philippines, the peasant people bow their heads to the great warrior icon, and the children all run up and kiss the
'God Hand!'.

They all believe that he has the blood of the great Lapu Lapu in his veins, and they worship the Filipino stickfighting hero of Cebu Island in the Philippines.

When I received my title of 'Grand Master' from the great GM Cacoy Canete, it made me a part of the lineage that goes back to the Lapu Lapu time, and now I become one of very few Westeners to get that incredible status and priveledge!

So it is with great honour and pride that carry the title of 'Grand Master' in the Cacoy Doce Pares Eskrima style, and I shall endeavour to continue promoting this famous stickfighting style of the great Filipino warriors such as Lapu Lapu and Mano Cacoy Canete, this is my solemn promise to the art, and to the Canete Family in Cebu City of the Philippines.