"FMA-Cheapened" (Dekiti Tirsia) by GT Gaje

[Zeph]

Hello everyone,

I found this blog on GT Gaje's website...


FMA-cheapened (Dekiti-Tirsia)
"I bring this subject of Dekiti-Tirsia because this name destroys the Tortals family and the legacy of the true system. I was confronted by many who attended the seminar of Nene Tortal questioning the Dekiti-Tirsia claimed to be a Tortal family system. The real truth is there is no "Dekiti-Tirsia" Nene Tortal is not what he claims to be inheriting and learned from his father Balbino Tortal. His father died during the war when he was 7 years and with his other brothers left with their mother. I can contest this statement because it is a shame that the Tortals family is being a victim of lying and false information. And more so the people that believe on this lie of Nene Tortal. He is not DekitiTirsia as a system because a system can be presented with Professionalism and after two hours seminar Nene Tortal has nothing to teach except disarming. So those who believe him is conspirator to the lies that he spread among the FMA student. If he is not a Tortal I don't mind it but a Tortal that lies affects me since , my grandfather is his father bnother.

Many knew that Nene Tortal is not Dekiti-Tirsia and he has very limited knowledge. All what he does is stolen techniques from Pekiti-Tirsia. he took most of my training tape and he didn't return and what he does is copy and pirate the techniques what is Pekiti _tirsia except disarming .So there is no Dekiti-Tirsia.

Those who claimed authority under the Tortal family should come out and proved that he has enough knowledge of the Tortal's system .

Selling instructors certificate is prostituting the FMA. And this is what you get from the immitation Peklti-Tirsia. And for those who buys Instructors certificate is just as an idiot like the seller. It is shamefull that one of my Pekiti-Tirsia instrucrtor was offered to buy Dekiti-Tirsia Instructors certificate for thousands of dollars.

Nene Tortal learned from Greg Alland the art of sellling , the art of ********. So both of them has good business about FMA -Do you still believe these guys.

I want to clean the bad impression about the Tortal family on this certificate deal . It can be settled in many ways . Rommel Tortal a Philippiune Resident Instructor claims the righful Tortals System and he is Nene Tortal younger brother son. Rommel Tortal was the stick bagman of Nene Tortal for many years and yet he didn't learn anything from Nene Tortal. Many stories about Nene Tortal but mostly were untrue. Like he claims he taught the Philippine Army , it was not the Philippine Army but students cadets under the ROTC-reserve officers training corps . This alone Nene Tortal claim as Philippine Army , it is a big lie.

Rommel Tortal , my second man in the Pekiti-Tirsia kali system has been outstanding instructor for many years. he topped the cllass on water combat scuba and he is now a regular officer and a gentleman. those who may read , please forward it to ligitimate students of FMA"

[Carol]

I prolly shouldn't say to much because Tuhon Nene is my instructos' instructor...but man.....that sounds like more sour grapes than it does honest criticism.

What I've sean of Tuhon Gaje is limited to some videos of a time before he and Tuhon Nene split. What I've seen of Tuhon Nene is restricted to some limited in-person interaction. There are similarities...as there are across the FMAs. However, what Tuhon Nene seemed to relay left both me and my training partner with the impression that there was a lot of law enforcement influences.

The way Tujon Gaje presents his opinion leaves me a bit flat as well. I haven't been around the system to comment on what is or is not true. To claim his innovations are restricted to disarms...I'm struggling to see the coverage. It takes a helluva lot more skill to disarm a hostile blade than it does to attack and cut someone with it. Some of the moves that are "pirated" make me wonder if by the same standards, musicians would be pirating each other when they play "The Blues".

Between the name calling and the profanity, I'm left feeling that this was little more than an attention seeking bluster of unverifiable truths. I have quite a bit of respect for Tuhon Gaje and the good folks that train in his lineage, but for the person he claims to be...Tuhon Gaje's professionalism and stature leave a lot to be desired. :bow:

[Beungood]

Tuhon Gaje and his instructors train the Phillipine Force Recon Marines and the Phillipine Special Action Force Police among others. He also formulated Survivasl Edged systems Defensive tactics for law enforcement which addresses liability and counterability. They are also involved with Us Marine NEST school(Jungle Survival). I can't speak to the aboveas it is a familiy matter between the men, but in my interaction with him I have never heard say these things.
In bladed combat from my persepective I would rather cut someone and take him out of the fight than try to disarm him. Not a shot at anyone just a tactical decision.

[arnisador]

My experiences with Mr. Tortal have been very good! I know there is some bad blood between the groups, but all I know is that I always look forward to Mr. Tortal's visits to the area.

I have heard him make claims that certain techniques were lifted from his system by others.

[kabaroan]

This is my opinion and my opinion only.

I have full respect for my elders. It pains me to see discord among FMA practitioners. From my research in FMA, it seems that discord has been a common theme.

Back in the 60s, the late Grandmaster Leo Giron (Bahala Na) and the late Grandmaster Angel Cabales (Cabales Serrada) taught together then had a rift that separated the two for quite a period of time. It wasn't until later that the two finally put their differences aside.

At GM Cabales' passing there seemed to be a lot of discord among the practioners that caused quite a bit of controversy within their community. I'm glad to hear that much of that has been burried as well.

I hope in time that the differences between the parties involved can be overcome and the arts can become stronger as a result.

The arts of the Philippines (and all Martial Arts) should be preserved and practiced and taught to all who are interested. Above all, as practioners of the arts, we should be inclusive of each other, not exclusive.

Just my rambling thoughts.

[Rich Parsons]

Hello everyone,

I found this blog on GT Gaje's website...


FMA-cheapened (Dekiti-Tirsia)
"I bring this subject of Dekiti-Tirsia because this name destroys the Tortals family and the legacy of the true system. I was confronted by many who attended the seminar of Nene Tortal questioning the Dekiti-Tirsia claimed to be a Tortal family system. The real truth is there is no "Dekiti-Tirsia" Nene Tortal is not what he claims to be inheriting and learned from his father Balbino Tortal. His father died during the war when he was 7 years and with his other brothers left with their mother. I can contest this statement because it is a shame that the Tortals family is being a victim of lying and false information. And more so the people that believe on this lie of Nene Tortal. He is not DekitiTirsia as a system because a system can be presented with Professionalism and after two hours seminar Nene Tortal has nothing to teach except disarming. So those who believe him is conspirator to the lies that he spread among the FMA student. If he is not a Tortal I don't mind it but a Tortal that lies affects me since , my grandfather is his father bnother.

Many knew that Nene Tortal is not Dekiti-Tirsia and he has very limited knowledge. All what he does is stolen techniques from Pekiti-Tirsia. he took most of my training tape and he didn't return and what he does is copy and pirate the techniques what is Pekiti _tirsia except disarming .So there is no Dekiti-Tirsia.

Those who claimed authority under the Tortal family should come out and proved that he has enough knowledge of the Tortal's system .

Selling instructors certificate is prostituting the FMA. And this is what you get from the immitation Peklti-Tirsia. And for those who buys Instructors certificate is just as an idiot like the seller. It is shamefull that one of my Pekiti-Tirsia instrucrtor was offered to buy Dekiti-Tirsia Instructors certificate for thousands of dollars.

Nene Tortal learned from Greg Alland the art of sellling , the art of ********. So both of them has good business about FMA -Do you still believe these guys.

I want to clean the bad impression about the Tortal family on this certificate deal . It can be settled in many ways . Rommel Tortal a Philippiune Resident Instructor claims the righful Tortals System and he is Nene Tortal younger brother son. Rommel Tortal was the stick bagman of Nene Tortal for many years and yet he didn't learn anything from Nene Tortal. Many stories about Nene Tortal but mostly were untrue. Like he claims he taught the Philippine Army , it was not the Philippine Army but students cadets under the ROTC-reserve officers training corps . This alone Nene Tortal claim as Philippine Army , it is a big lie.

Rommel Tortal , my second man in the Pekiti-Tirsia kali system has been outstanding instructor for many years. he topped the cllass on water combat scuba and he is now a regular officer and a gentleman. those who may read , please forward it to ligitimate students of FMA"

All I have seen from GM Gaje has been good. I have only seen it in picture or video. I do not question his skills.

I know some guys in Pekiti who train well and hard and are good guys.

But one wonders, if there was a GM Remy Presas Blog would someone bring up GM Gaje trying to claim to be the Father/GM of Modern Arnis as publish in a mid 70's magazine?

I know people make mistakes.

I know people can have a falling out

I know it can get ugly with he said and they said and did comments.

Yet for someone to get upset with his claims to lies, when he himself has this in his history?

I wish GM Gaje the best and hope all can be resolved.

[Brock]

This stuff happens in every art. Doesn't make it right, but it's kinda' like death and taxes. When te founder of an art dies he leaves behind several talented students and eveyone wants to be top dog, and in alot of cases maybe a couple of them are talented enough that they should be, so maybe the fact that they divded is okay, but the name calling and discrediting needn't take place. Just look at what's happened to Modern Arnis since Prof. Presas passed away. There are several good organisations that carry on the flame so to speak and there are a couple of so-so orgs. out there that are using their "affiliation" with the Prof. to hide the fact that they are so-so. Doesn't mean you're wasting your time training with them because they do have some good stuff to teach, but there are other better choices if you have access to them. I think I may have even made a pint with all of this rambling, but I'm so tired from shoveling snow right now that, I can't remember what it was supposed to be.

[Carol]

This stuff happens in every art. Doesn't make it right, but it's kinda' like death and taxes. When te founder of an art dies he leaves behind several talented students and eveyone wants to be top dog, and in alot of cases maybe a couple of them are talented enough that they should be, so maybe the fact that they divded is okay, but the name calling and discrediting needn't take place. Just look at what's happened to Modern Arnis since Prof. Presas passed away. There are several good organisations that carry on the flame so to speak and there are a couple of so-so orgs. out there that are using their "affiliation" with the Prof. to hide the fact that they are so-so. Doesn't mean you're wasting your time training with them because they do have some good stuff to teach, but there are other better choices if you have access to them. I think I may have even made a pint with all of this rambling, but I'm so tired from shoveling snow right now that, I can't remember what it was supposed to be.

In other words, its better if we focus on our training instead of our bickering. That works for me :) :)

[jus_dann]

anybody home? how do i find people to chat???
dan

[jus_dann]

wasabi?

[jus_dann]

hey mike???

[jus_dann]

you must be writing some good over there

[arnisador]

We don't currently have a chat facility, but this forum (http://www.fmatalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=50) can be used for that purpose!

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[Brian R. VanCise]

In other words, its better if we focus on our training instead of our bickering. That works for me :) :)

Carol that is always the best way to go! http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Gilla]

O.K once again i am forced to say something about the history of PTK. Leo is the only male heir of Conrado Tortal and as such was taught to be the one to carry on the system. Nene is his Uncle and his father was killed during WW2. So could not teach him. Nene spent most of his time learning from G.M.Amador Chavez of the Dose Principales System not PTK.This was in the late 40's and into 50's He is also a high ranking Karate instructor, shoto- kan i belive. He did not come into the PTK fold until much later. The myth was started by Mark Wiley in his book on the Masters of FMA and was never questioned. I have seen Nene's art and it is much stiffer and more ridgid than PTK and to me dosn't not look much like it. Whle Leo might have upset some people with his tone he is for the most part right about his statement that Dekiti is not Pekiti. All of this info can be found in an old inside kung fu story and backed up by Guro Mike Vasques, a student of G.M. Chavez. Once again another fairy tale debunked.
Eddie

[Brock]

O.K once again i am forced to say something about the history of PTK. Leo is the only male heir of Conrado Tortal and as such was taught to be the one to carry on the system. Nene is his Uncle and his father was killed during WW2. So could not teach him. Nene spent most of his time learning from G.M.Amador Chavez of the Dose Principales System not PTK.This was in the late 40's and into 50's He is also a high ranking Karate instructor, shoto- kan i belive. He did not come into the PTK fold until much later. The myth was started by Mark Wiley in his book on the Masters of FMA and was never questioned. I have seen Nene's art and it is much stiffer and more ridgid than PTK and to me dosn't not look much like it. Whle Leo might have upset some people with his tone he is for the most part right about his statement that Dekiti is not Pekiti. All of this info can be found in an old inside kung fu story and backed up by Guro Mike Vasques, a student of G.M. Chavez. Once again another fairy tale debunked.
Eddie

Not only debunked, but it doesn't insult either person's ability.

[Waltyr]

hmmm...."Tortal learned from Greg Alland..."

Well, since I KNOW Mr. Alland personally and have regular interaction with him, I can say this:

1.) Mr. Alland is good teacher & a very skilled practioner of PT (trust me, I
have felt his skill many times, and let me tell you...it hurts on
occasion!)

2.) Mr. Alland also happens to be a an individual who wants to promote
the FMA in anyway possible, and happens to do it in a business like
fashion. He happens to be good at promoting the 'art' commercially
and he can actually make a living at it. I mean, hey, if I could make
a living in teaching, promoting, and spreading the word about the
beauty of the FMA's, well then, whats wrong with that? I sure
wouldn't mind doing that at all.

Also, Rich P., thanks for jumping in on this one. I know that you and I have actually talked about this topic before and I definitely see your point in reference to the incident in the 70's concerning GM Presas & GM Gaje and that whole ordeal.

"Why can't we all just get along?"


W.v.

[arnisador]

I met Mr. Alland once at a DTS seminar. He is very skilled and very excited about the FMAs!

[Gilla]

This is the 2nd time I heard this myth . Can anyone name the author of this story ,which magazine? As far as I know it's another story , like alligators in the sewer. As far as I know G.M. Gaje never made that statement. All I know is a lot of systems bite off PTK , about 8 other G.M trained under Gaje at one time or another. Modern Arnis is not even close to looking like PTK . Grand Tuhon Gaje has a right to be upset with all this, he never get's his due just a bunch a story's someone heard or was told. (I showed him all his knife he was just a beginner when i met him etc.) Let's not even start about Mr. Alland ,
hogwash is a good word for all of this.
Eddie

[Rich Parsons]

This is the 2nd time I heard this myth . Can anyone name the author of this story ,which magazine? As far as I know it's another story , like alligators in the sewer. As far as I know G.M. Gaje never made that statement. All I know is a lot of systems bite off PTK , about 8 other G.M trained under Gaje at one time or another. Modern Arnis is not even close to looking like PTK . Grand Tuhon Gaje has a right to be upset with all this, he never get's his due just a bunch a story's someone heard or was told. (I showed him all his knife he was just a beginner when i met him etc.) Let's not even start about Mr. Alland ,
hogwash is a good word for all of this.
Eddie


I believe it was an "Inside Kung-Fu". I will have to do some research. But I talked to GM Presas and he told me in person that someone had tried to take his art in name and claim to be the GM. GM Remy Presas did not mention the name at the time. He was not like that. I later talked with others who referred me to this print.

My point in reference was not to try to degrade the opinion of GM Gaje, but to make the point that this is not the first time stuff like this happens.

[Rich Parsons]

Also, Rich P., thanks for jumping in on this one. I know that you and I have actually talked about this topic before and I definitely see your point in reference to the incident in the 70's concerning GM Presas & GM Gaje and that whole ordeal.

"Why can't we all just get along?"


W.v.

I agree that it would be better to just all get along.

[DAMAG-INC]

I agree that it would be better to just all get along.

It sure is alot easier said than done, but for as long as there are people that hunger for power, it's not likely to happen anytime soon. People that are in the martial arts are human too, and they are not above such motives.

[Gilla]

As far as i know G.T, Gaje might have suggested the name Modern Arnis to G.M. Presas when he started teaching his own art, but never said he was the founder or head of Modern Arnis. Why would he? They both lead there own very large groups world wide. This just sounds like another misinterpitation of something that was said long ago.
Eddie

[Brock]

You know this is kind of off subject, but with the talk of Prof Presas and G. T. Gaje it always amazes me how it seems you can almost do a Six Degrees of Separation with any major instructor in the FMA community.

[Carol]

It sure is alot easier said than done, but for as long as there are people that hunger for power, it's not likely to happen anytime soon. People that are in the martial arts are human too, and they are not above such motives.

Sure, but that doesn't make it a less worthy goal, nor does it mean that a hunger for power is OK because everyone else is doing it. Overall I think our systems (whichever they are) benefit more taking the high road than they do from squabbling. :)

[Beungood]

Some of this might be communication failure or a language barrier. Someone hears something said takes the wrong meaning and retells the story changing it a little. The next person repeats and the snbowball starts. I see it all the time in law enforcement.

[Gilla]

I think thats true. When i can even find most of the articals that stated stuff like this most of the time it said something else altogther, anyway thats what i've come to findout. Also FMA allows for your own way of doing things in the first place.

Eddie

[Carol]

Some of this might be communication failure or a language barrier. Someone hears something said takes the wrong meaning and retells the story changing it a little. The next person repeats and the snbowball starts. I see it all the time in law enforcement.

Quite possible indeed. I also think it's important to point out that Tuhon Gaje and Tuhon Nene had their differences, but their differences are not necessarily their students' differences.

[Beungood]

I like my Guro like to keep myself seperated from and out of politics. I rather train and excel than to take part in arguements.

[Brock]

I try to keep out of the politics myself, but if I see something said against one of my instructors that I believe inaccurate, I will say something in their defense. I try to be polite and repectful when I do it though. Sometimes the person on the other end isn't as respectful and there's need to be "firm".

[Rich Parsons]

As far as i know G.T, Gaje might have suggested the name Modern Arnis to G.M. Presas when he started teaching his own art, but never said he was the founder or head of Modern Arnis. Why would he? They both lead there own very large groups world wide. This just sounds like another misinterpitation of something that was said long ago.
Eddie

As I do not have a copy in my hands then take it for nothing.

Do a search and see if it is there if you wish. Unfortunately it will require someone with access to old magazines.

As to why would he? I can not speak to any reason why. I know some people always make issues of things and how something was done or who was there (* in an abstract sense of any subject any issue *).

[Gilla]

Why don't you let it go . It seems like this was argument about D.T. and P.T.K. not about Modern Arnis, but you used as a chance to hint that my teacher was not of high moral fiber. I seem to remember a story about G.M. Presas having a falling out with his brother and lets not forget the internal struggle going on in M.Arnis . It's alway best to stay out of family fight's in the first place. Anyway there seems to be about 6 diffrent groups within your art at this time.Each one is the real deal. Not to mention no hard proof as to where T.Gaje's stament was made in the first place. Let he who is with out sin throw the first stone thats a good thing to remember. I know what i said about G.M. Tortal is mosty true because it is based on facts . There was an artical , it was written by Guro Ron Harris and it was in inside kung fu in the early 90'S. I still have a copy in my files, now when you can do the same i will listen but until then i say hogwash and poppycock. Now what do you have to say? Also have you ever met G.T. Gaje? I always like to meet people before i judge what i heard about them. I have not seen G.M. Presas that why i don't say anthing about him , I don't have anything to judge it on.
Eddie

[Rich Parsons]

Why don't you let it go . It seems like this was argument about D.T. and P.T.K. not about Modern Arnis, but you used as a chance to hint that my teacher was not of high moral fiber. I seem to remember a story about G.M. Presas having a falling out with his brother and lets not forget the internal struggle going on in M.Arnis . It's alway best to stay out of family fight's in the first place. Anyway there seems to be about 6 diffrent groups within your art at this time.Each one is the real deal. Not to mention no hard proof as to where T.Gaje's stament was made in the first place. Let he who is with out sin throw the first stone thats a good thing to remember. I know what i said about G.M. Tortal is mosty true because it is based on facts . There was an artical , it was written by Guro Ron Harris and it was in inside kung fu in the early 90'S. I still have a copy in my files, now when you can do the same i will listen but until then i say hogwash and poppycock. Now what do you have to say? Also have you ever met G.T. Gaje? I always like to meet people before i judge what i heard about them. I have not seen G.M. Presas that why i don't say anthing about him , I don't have anything to judge it on.
Eddie


Eddie,

You have made the point I was trying to make. This is not the first time. Nor do I expect it to be the last time something like this happens.

I apologize my files were destroyed with the ex-wife. So like I said I stand aside in the lack of proof but say if it bothers a person then try to investigate.

[Gilla]

Fair enough.
Eddie

[wes tasker]

Eddie-


I know what i said about G.M. Tortal is mosty true because it is based on facts . There was an artical , it was written by Guro Ron Harris and it was in inside kung fu in the early 90'S.

If you don't mind - which issue exactly?

-wes tasker

[Waltyr]

Greetings to All,

I know that there was some question as far as the accuracy as to what was stated in the Gaje Blog. I personally when to Gaje's Blog and looked to see if the same article that was posted was indeed the same posted here on the FMAtalk, and it is. Here is the link:

http:/www.pt-go.com/

CLick on the Blog portion and you should see it. Scroll down the blog page and it should be the 4th article from the top.


W.v.

[Gilla]

Wes,
I'll have to dig it out, i just moved and all my stuff is in storage. Now get me stright i am not saying G.M. Tortal did not study P.T.K. i am saying he did alot of his early training with G.M Chavez and his group as well as Lapu-Lapu kali. Tortal was also head of the Negros Occidental arnis federation formed in 1986 to promote both Dose Princeapales and Lapu Lapu Kali as well as tapado , and that while a Master of arnis he was not the heir to P.T.K. ,but having said all that, the artical has a photo of a very young Nene playing at Kali. The artical itself was about G.M. Chavez and his style. I think it was 1990 .I can try and get intouch with Ron Harris and ask him.
Eddie

[wes tasker]

Eddie-



I'll have to dig it out, i just moved and all my stuff is in storage.


Thanks, I'd appreciate that.



Now get me straight...


I have made no assumptions as to what you are saying other than what you have written - which is one of the reasons I'd like to know the exact issue of "Inside Kung Fu" that you are refering to.

-wes tasker

[lhommedieu]

He [Nene Tortal] did not come into the PTK fold until much later.
Eddie

When? How long did he stay? Why did he leave?

Best,

Steve

[Gilla]

To whom it may concern,
Inside Kung Fu Aug,1990 lapu lapu kali by Ron Harris is one source. I have to get the other from Ron or inside kung fu. That 2nd article was about G.M. Chavez and his arnis group. The rest of my info is thru conversations with Tim Waid, Tuhon Gaje Guro, Ron Harris and a letter from Guro Mike Vasquez. Also Tuhon Bill's own website states that Tuhon Gaje is the heir to PTK. As for how long Nene trained i don't know. Also two such highly trained teachers as yourselfs should see the diffrence in the two arts, i can. G.M. Tortal's love of disarm's seems to come from Lapu Lapu which trains disarms alot . As far as i know it was personal differances that brought abut the seperation of T. Leo and G.M. Nene. Just as it did with Tuhon Bill. All i can say is that all three Tuhon's have very diffrent styles. But Tuhon Gaje's being most like what i learned from Maginoo Tom Bisio when i first started. In fact there is no diffrence because Tom learned the doce methodos from Leo. Now i have invited both Wes and Steve to G.Tuhon Gaje's seminar's when he is intown come and see for yourself. Also see Tim, aside from Tom he is the best i have ever saw. All i wanted was a teacher i was happy with and with Maginoo Tim and Tuhon Gaje i have found what i have been missing, only Tom comes close but he does not teach PTK anymore. Maginoo Tom was amazing .When i get a copy of the 2nd article i will post the info.
Hope that helps
Eddie

[wes tasker]

Eddie-

Thanks for the magazine reference.



should see the diffrence in the two arts, i can.




Also Tuhon Bill's own website states that Tuhon Gaje is the heir to PTK.


I can see the difference having met Tuhon Nene several times. Speaking for myself - the differences between PTK & DTS, and Tuhon Leo's rightful heirship were not in question...



Now i have invited both Wes and Steve to G.Tuhon Gaje's seminar's when he is intown come and see for yourself.


Thank you, but I will respectfuly decline. I am very happy and proud to be a student of Tuhon Bill McGrath.

Thanks again for the information.

-wes tasker

[arnisador]

As far as i know G.T, Gaje might have suggested the name Modern Arnis to G.M. Presas when he started teaching his own art

I heard that it was Remy Presas' wife who suggested arnis (vs. eskrima, kali, ...) but don't know anything about who, if anyone, suggested Modern!

[lhommedieu]

Hey Eddie,

I just got back from Mexico and haven't had much contact with a computer. Hopefully I'll resist the temptation to stay on-line too long and go upstairs to train! Be that as it may:


Also two such highly trained teachers as yourselfs should see the diffrence in the two arts, i can. G.M. Tortal's love of disarm's seems to come from Lapu Lapu which trains disarms alot . As far as i know it was personal differances that brought abut the seperation of T. Leo and G.M. Nene.

Tuhon Total moves differently from GT Gaje. I'd be interested to hear your take on this segment of a post by Ben Fajardo from a few years back on the PSDTC Forum:


Hello there, I hope that all is well with you. Here`s the deal as I understand it from the mouths of both Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje and Tuhon Jerson "Nene" Tortal concerning their family system. Kali Pekiti-Tirsia was officially founded in 1897 by Grand Master Conrado B. Tortal on the Island of Visayas in the Philippines. It was always classified as a "Close Quartering" fighting system placing alot of attention on footwork and close quarter combative methodology for aggressively taking ones opponent out quickly.


GM Conrado B. Tortal was the uncle of "Nene" Tortal and the Grandfather of Leo T. Gaje. Both learned the system from GM Conrado at an early age and early on the word was that both had inherited Kali Pekiti-Tirsia on the founders passing. For the most part for many years alot of people accused Tuhon "Nene" Tortal of living in the shadow of Tuhon Leo T. Gaje. As every time that there was a public demonstration of the system it was always Tuhon "Nene" introducing Tuhon Leo to demonstrate and answer questions of everyone concerning the system. All the while Tuhon "Nene" would sit, observe and assist whenever requested by Tuhon Leo Gaje. It was clear that publically Tuhon Leo Gaje was the driving force behind propagating Kali Pekiti-Tirsia to the world.

Not that Tuhon "Nene" Tortal was incapable as he has been given very high compliments by many in the know. Many of those compliments were from my Instructor the late Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite, he always was very impressed with Tuhon "Nene" Tortals` ability to speak with his movements and not with his mouth. PG Sulite would often compliment Tuhon "Nene" on his knife work among other areas of expertise.

There is no way that you could ever accuse Tuhon "Nene" of moving like Tuhon Gaje, or vice-versa. They both translated the knowledge that they were given by GM Conrado differently and chose to demonstrate it somewhat differently according to natural talents that each possessed. Tuhon Leo is very impressive to watch and moves with flamboyant effect while Tuhon "Nene" moves more directly to the point and thereby not getting caught up in the flash factor of sorts. Tuhon "Nene" is by nature a very quiet man but don`t let his silence fool you as when he needs to get serious he is quite capable of devouring his opponent. Whereas some say that Tuhon Gaje has been given "Anting-anting" for the ability to speak. Some would say that he has a silver tongue and I would have to agree with this as when he speaks his words bring to life the definition of what it is that he is trying to convey. But as well Tuhon Leo Gaje can more than back up anything that he says on a field of battle. Although both take somewhat different approaches each is more than capable in their own unique ways.

What does this all have to do with Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas you ask? Well before 1996 I had never heard of this system and even when speaking with Tuhon "Nene" Tortal in Mambukal, Philippines in February of 1996 he would still refer to his family system as Kali Pekiti-Tirsia. I don`t want to get into the politics of things so I will just say that a few months later in the summer of 1996 an issue over money came up and because of it both Tuhon "Nene" Tortal and Tuhon Leo T. Gaje were pushed apart from one another and in anger each went their own way.

Shortly after this I began hearing for the first time of Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas and it envoked alot of accusations to fly between the two Pekiti-Tirsia Tuhons which inevitably wedged a greater division between the two. Basically Tuhon "Nene" Tortal started teaching Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas and at that time when asked what it was he stated that it was the same system that was founded and taught to him by GM Conrado B. Tortal (Kali Pekiti-Tirsia) but as it was called from a different dialect in his area of Visayas.

So I walked away from all of this as Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas being not a different system than that of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia but actually the two were one in the same with the only difference being the dialect spoken and how each of the words spoken define "Close Quartering Fighting" in those dialects. To Tuhon Leo Gaje it is Kali Pekiti-Tirsia and to Tuhon "Nene" Tortal it is Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas. But each teach the same system that was taught to both Tuhon "Nene" Tortal and his nephew Tuhon Leo T. Gaje from the founder of that system being GM Conrado B. Tortal.
Is Kali Pekiti-Tirsia different than Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas? Yes, Just as different as is Tuhon "Nene" Tortal from his nephew Tuhon Leo T. Gaje. As each translated the knowledge from the founder a little differently. You will see alot of similarity between the two (systems / Tuhons) as well some things will be quite different with emphasis being placed on different things in accordance with what each of the two Tuhons dictate as being most important to them individually. I feel that if you want to get the complete picture of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia and Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas alike you need to train under each of the two Tuhons. Not that any one is superior over the other but more so that each walked away from the founder with a different perspective of that system and what it represents.

This has been my understanding of this whole thing since 1996 when it became an international issue. I`m not sure what the official answer or position is currently some 8 years later. Either way I think that anyone would benefit training under either Tuhon Leo T. Gaje or his Uncle Tuhon "Nene" Tortal if one wishes to excell in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia (Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas).

Wes has also let me know in a conversation about a year ago that Tuhon Tortal moves differently than GT Gaje. Not better or worse - just differently. As Michael and May Williams up in Boston are students of Nene Tortal I may get a chance to meet him one of these days.


Just as it did with Tuhon Bill. All i can say is that all three Tuhon's have very diffrent styles. But Tuhon Gaje's being most like what i learned from Maginoo Tom Bisio when i first started. In fact there is no diffrence because Tom learned the doce methodos from Leo.

Here I have to disagree with you. I hope that I am not speaking out of turn when I say that Tom and Tuhon William McGrath came up at the same time and learned the same curriculum. I can't see much "stylistic" difference between Tuhon McGrath and Grand Tuhon Gaje in this clip:

http://www.pekiti.com/video_clips/LEO96-ALL.mpg

Of course, I've never met GT Gaje and don't know how he has developed Pekiti Tirsia Kali in the last ten years. The man is a legend and, if Tom's attitude is any indication, a complete master of Filipino martial arts and the true heir to Pekiti Tirsia Kali. That's undisputed. For that matter, Tuhon McGrath has never, in the few years that I've been attending his classes and seminars spoken with anything less than glowing respect for the man he generally refers to as "my teacher." I believe that his comportment should be a model for the rest of us.

With respect to Tuhon McGrath, I've had the advantage of learning a little Filipino martial arts under both Tom Bisio and Bill Schettino (no slouch, as I am sure you are aware, at understanding the "essence" of Pekiti Tirsia), and can with that lens observe that he is a superlative teacher. We've trained together up in Fishkill so you know what I'm talking about. Personal and political agendas don't take away skill level.


Now i have invited both Wes and Steve to G.Tuhon Gaje's seminar's when he is intown come and see for yourself.

Wes' loyalty to his teacher should be obvious. For my part, I would be honored to attend a seminar with Grand Tuhon Gaje when my schedule permits.

Best,

Steve

[Carol]

Wes has also let me know in a conversation about a year ago that Tuhon Tortal moves differently than GT Gaje. Not better or worse - just differently. As Michael and May Williams up in Boston are students of Nene Tortal I may get a chance to meet him one of these days.


It would be great to have you join us Steve:)

We hope to bring him back as soon as we can. Naturally, I'll be posting dates :D :D

[Bogey]

No offence, guys, but I'd suggest you should either be 110% sure of what you're saying or just not stumble around where sleeping dogs lie.

Rumors are a most human phenomenon and it's always very interesting to play around with possibilities but it's a fact that a story doesn't become more true by being told by more and more people.
Personally, I don't know all of the stories, but some of the facts very detailed. I always consider it to be part of a crappy mentality to discuss stuff that I'm not personally concerned with. I'm sure those guys are able to mind their own business.
The problems with words is always that they're not easily taken back and made unspoken. See what I mean?
We might discuss and discuss and never come to a solution.
As far as "who is able to do it best" is concerned:
The stick is round and the blade is flat. You can fake videos, fake pics but you won't talk away a broken bone.

[408kali]

Ya true Bogey. Everyone's got an opinion, for better or worse. I mean, I've heard negative criticism about Serrada and almost lost my mind (thank G_d I kept my temper- I might've lost my HEAD as well). Just recently I heard the second such remark. To denote these negative remarks, the late Grandmaster and U.S. founder of the system, Angel Cabales, participated in over 40 death matches and lost NONE of them. And like I told my Serrada instructor, yes I enjoy meeting and fellowshipping with other systems of FMA, but I'm sure I wouldn't do it if I weren't fully confident in Eskrima Serrada. More than likely I would shine whatever art I learned and seek another foundation entirely. So what is my outlook on politics and such?
Advice given to me from an unnamed Tuhon which holds true for me to today:
"Let your art do the talking."
Let your art do the talking! One of my greatest intentions in fellowshipping here with you all is to build amongst one another and encourage each other in the art.
I can find aspects from most, if not all, FMA's and I prefer not to speak negativity with regards to other systems. However, when confronted with negativity, it's best to handle things in a calm and mature manner, if you feel the need to even respond/acknowledge such things.

Peace & Blessings to all, ~John

[Viking]

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=13530

An old discussion from defend.net about PTK and DTK.Mr Kalisilat had made some intresting posts about PTK.

[lhommedieu]

One should always keep in mind that all of the players of this drama have had both personal and business relationships throughout the years, and that recollection of history changes as personal and business histories change.

Shut up and train. You'll thank yourself later.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[eugene johnson]

Who are some of the instructors in Dekiti Tirsia?
Is Tim Wade an instructor under nene and Leo Gaje or is he an instructor under only Le Gaje. I am impressed with the ptgo website but is there a dekiti website that I can go to so that I can compare Dikiti and Pekiti?

[Chris Wiggins]

Tim is a Pekiti instuctor, and has no affiliation with Nene. You want to compare? Just go to YouTube, it should take about 2 seconds for see the difference.

[St. Bernard]

What I like most about Tuhon Gaje is that he is not afraid to tell it as he sees it. I wasn't there for any of this, so I have no idea what happened. I will say this though, I've read plenty from the Tuhon regarding other FMA's, saying what they owe to PTK and when it comes time for the others to respond...
...
You hear that?
....
crickets, right?

Nobody has a thing to say to the man. You would think that if he were simply pulling this out of thin air, people would call him on it, but they just don't. Makes you wonder why.
Keep up the good work, Grand Tuhon.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

What I like most about Tuhon Gaje is that he is not afraid to tell it as he sees it. I wasn't there for any of this, so I have no idea what happened. I will say this though, I've read plenty from the Tuhon regarding other FMA's, saying what they owe to PTK and when it comes time for the others to respond...
...
You hear that?
....
crickets, right?

Nobody has a thing to say to the man. You would think that if he were simply pulling this out of thin air, people would call him on it, but they just don't. Makes you wonder why.
Keep up the good work, Grand Tuhon.

Mr Demon-

I'm not taking sides in this debate, but I would like to point out as the owner of this site that ALL of the members here are guests in MY HOUSE! Keep it respectful. There have been two suspensions due to the actions of the PTK and DTK members. I'm beginning to reach my limit with this crap! I would like to leave everyone with a saying I use a lot.

There are three sides to every story: Yours, Mine and the TRUTH.

There are many skeletons on both sides of this debate. I don't think that it would be good to have them revealed. Consider this a freindly threat!

[Carol]

Account Policy
Members are permitted a maximum of one account per person, regardless of how many organizations you represent. If you choose to ignore this important restriction, all your accounts will be disabled.
Members may not post on behalf of any banned member in any public manner. This includes all forums, private messages, signatures, and e-mail features.
Keep your account information private (password).
Purposefully violating the security of the forum or allowing someone else to use your account may result in suspension or ban.
Thread Locked.

- Carol Kaur
- FMAT Administrator

[Carol]

There was some misunderstanding here.

Having spoken personally with The Black Demon, he indicated that he was not referring to DTK. There was also a concern over multiple accounts, which has successfully been straightened out. My apologies to him for a bit of a rough entry to FMATalk.

However, the DTK vs. PTK debate has been done to death in recent weeks, and...while intellectual debate and vigorous discussion is welcomed...denigrating another art or style isn't what we're all about here.

Time for some fresh discussion.

This thread is staying closed.

- Carol Kaur
- FMAT Admin