Fencing and Balintawak - Taken from Sabre and Modern Arnis

[Rich Parsons]

The Savaadra's (sp?) had a family member that was in jail with a French trained fencer (I believe a Euro as well) according to legend. This man traded skills with the French trained fencer during his prison term. They exchanged training info to pass the time.

The Savaadra's were either the founders or early plank holders in Doce Pares. According to Ising Atillo's internet info, the fencing influence was blended with the Savaadra's prior training in FMA.

Doce Pares came first, then came Balintawak and then Modern Arnis. That is a simplified lineage of one one of the arts (Balintawak) that influenced GM RP's Modern Arnis.

My personal opinion, though not necessarily popular, is that Doce Pares and Balintawak arts are PRIMARILY fencing influenced with boxing and some other less influencial FMA indiginous arts. RP brought more FMA indiginous arts to the table in MA because of his varied experience.

If you notice the parallel between sabre fencing and the single stick or stick and dagger emphasis (and style of movement - or lack) in Balintawak, it is a very close stylist comparison. Anciong Bacon was a boxer as well, so that made its way into Balintawak as well. Early Modern Arnis, if you have copies of any of the vids/books looks very similar to Balintiwak in this way.

As GM RP developed Modern Arnis, he had included influences of other fighting systems to round it out and beef up the empty hand portions. Wally Jay SJJ, Shotokan, Ocho Ocho, Kenpo...all were influencial when RP saw how it fit into the flow of MA.

Don't get me wrong, I would still be willing to call Doce Pares and Balitawak FMA's because they put their fingerprint on what they learned. Much like "Thai cuisine" is close to Chinese or Japanese in some ways because of some common ingredients and cooking techniques but has a distinct "Thai" signature. I would NOT say that Doce Pares, Balintawak or to a degree Modern Arnis could be called indiginous or 'ancient' FMA's though. Some of the more tribal based arts, Silat influenced arts would be 'older' in that regard.

I too saw the fencing similarities from my (brief) saber training years ago, whether the current similarities are systemic or just physiological limits on how much variety there can be in swinging a stick/sword I don't know. But there is some decent anecdotal evidence to show that fencing played a part to some degree both ancient and modern.

Fencing and Balintawak?

This surprises me.

Could you please provide some examples?

Since 1998, I have not seen what I would call fencing, there are thrusts I grant that, but I do not see the fencing, nor do I see the relationship to sabre which is blade versus Balintawak which is stick.

Curious.



NOTE: I quoted a post from a another thread and started in here in Balintawak.

[loki09789]

Fencing and Balintawak?

This surprises me.

Could you please provide some examples?

Since 1998, I have not seen what I would call fencing, there are thrusts I grant that, but I do not see the fencing, nor do I see the relationship to sabre which is blade versus Balintawak which is stick.

Curious.



NOTE: I quoted a post from a another thread and started in here in Balintawak.

Rich,
It isn't a similarity in techique so much as the systemic approach that I saw with Bobby Taboada's Cuentada System. The other thing to remember is that if the fencer/prison story is true, the influence would be something that people that had experience in both Euro fencing and FMA (MA/Balintawak/Doce Pares) might see but wouldn't be something that people would actively teach. FMA is more about tactics and application that tradition so some instructors might not even be aware of such a story. They might just look at a Euro fencer and notice the similarities.

Bobby also showed the knife to stick/sword connection a few times too. I don't think that the blade is a direct training emphasis, but I think that it is an influence as it is in all FMA that I have had the chance to see.

I fenced for 2 years off and on in Wash. DC while I was stationed there. Mainly with the saber. The systemic structure was very similar to what I experienced when Bobby had us on the floor one on one and moved us with striking, verbal and contact cues through drills and such. There were movement similitaries in things like the 6 position blocking and the saber parry set that I learned. Also the 'parry and repost' model is similar to the defense and counter model that Bobby used.

Again, the Fencer/Prison connection was something I came across in my research into Ising Atillo a while ago. I can try to find the exact cite that I got that info from, but I do remember it was on a site for a PI based Balintawak group. I'll have more if I can find it again.

[loki09789]

The following quote is from the Doce Pares International Website:

"The name Doce Pares was adopted in
reference to the famous twelve bodyguards
of Emperor Charlemagne of France (AD 768-814).
these twelve people all top swordsmen were
known to have fought and killed hundreds of
enemies in battles. Doce Pares which means
"Twelve pairs" in spanish, was meant also to
honor the twelve people who originally planned
to form the orgnization, and when the
membership rose to twenty four at the time
of the inauguration, it indeed became more
significantly fitting"

Though it doesn't say outright that there was a French Fencer in the mix, it does connect to the French Prisoner/training partner story as well as the Founder status of the Savaadra's. Since there is also mention of the Spanish languague source of Doce Pares, it could indicate the influence of Spanish culture/Fencing on FMA as well.

"...And this quote from the same page could indicate why there is no direct mention of 'fencing/euro influence' in Balintawak. Balitawak is one step removed in progression from Doce Pares, so not all the stories/training from all the Doce Pares masters would have trickled down to all the students that studied Doce Pares."

"All the founding masters had their own set of followers
and the students who chose not to study and cross-train
in other styles naturally learned only the particular
style of his own teacher."

And this information from the Visayan martial arts cite about the group that the Doce Pares group shot off from. Note the use of 'fencing' in the title. This is a PI based Balintawak website.

"The 'Doce Pares' is an Escrima/Arnis Martial Arts Club that was founded in Cebu City in January 12, 1932. Originally it was a breakaway group of students and instructors from the 'Labangon Fencing Club' of the 1920's which was influenced heavily by the Saavedra and Cañete families. The original instructors of the Doce Pares taught their own particular families, island's or region's styles of Escrima and their particular interpretation of their own styles."

and some interesting info on Balintawak influences other than Doce Pares:

"Venancio was expert in several styles of Escrima, and was also skilled in Boxing, Filipino grappling or ‘Dumog’ and Jui Jitsu, which is referred to by some Filipinos as ‘Combat Judo’."

Please note that Boxing and 'Combat Judo' were both western influences. THe term 'Combat Judo' was what military personnel were taught as H2H at this time, so the PI use of the term indicates an American/Western influence on Bacon's own martial arts background.

[Epa]

As far as direct technique to technique comparison goes, I don't see much of a connection between sabre fencing and balintawak, but I haven't studied either one in depth so there may be things I'm missing. On an abstract level, I do see many common principles.

1. Both approaches emphasize a linear approach to their footwork and movement, though at different ranges. Sabre fencing tends more towards the long and middle ranges with no use of the alive hand allowed, whereas Balintawak favors close quarters and looks to crash and keep the opponent lined up right in front of them at that close range. This differs from many other weapons systems which focus more on triangular or circular footwork.

2. Both systems seem to be defensively based. Balintawak's basics seems to be focused on a developed good blocking skills, which leads to the ability to trap and control an opponent's weapon. Sabre fencing enforces the right of way requirements where if person A initiates an attack person B must defend before attacking themselves. This is to prevent the habit of trading blows with a weapon, which is something that is highly emphasized in Balintawak. It's just instead of doing a block and a quick riposte as in fencing, you block, control the opponent's weapon and lock it down to set up your shot.

So in terms of general strategy there are some definite similarities. As far as the actual application, that is partly due to the fact that the two styles play by different rules and use different weapons. Again, I haven't done a lot of either system so if anyone thinks I'm full of it, let me know.

Eric

[loki09789]

As far as direct technique to technique comparison goes, I don't see much of a connection between sabre fencing and balintawak, but I haven't studied either one in depth so there may be things I'm missing. On an abstract level, I do see many common principles.

1. Both approaches emphasize a linear approach to their footwork and movement, though at different ranges. Sabre fencing tends more towards the long and middle ranges with no use of the alive hand allowed, whereas Balintawak favors close quarters and looks to crash and keep the opponent lined up right in front of them at that close range. This differs from many other weapons systems which focus more on triangular or circular footwork.

2. Both systems seem to be defensively based. Balintawak's basics seems to be focused on a developed good blocking skills, which leads to the ability to trap and control an opponent's weapon. Sabre fencing enforces the right of way requirements where if person A initiates an attack person B must defend before attacking themselves. This is to prevent the habit of trading blows with a weapon, which is something that is highly emphasized in Balintawak. It's just instead of doing a block and a quick riposte as in fencing, you block, control the opponent's weapon and lock it down to set up your shot.

So in terms of general strategy there are some definite similarities. As far as the actual application, that is partly due to the fact that the two styles play by different rules and use different weapons. Again, I haven't done a lot of either system so if anyone thinks I'm full of it, let me know.

Eric

1. Mostly, but not entirely true. In 'Trad' Euro fencing, there is angling and circularity. Competitive fencing is different. The corto range in Euro fencing is not evident in competitive fencing, true, but it is the bread and butter of 'trad fencing' if you ever look at reproductions of old sketches. Even kicks and throws are there.

2. There is no rule about right of way in saber fencing.
"If epee is the weapon of patient, defensive strategy, then saber is its polar opposite. In saber, the rules of right of way strongly favor the fencer who attacks first, and a mere graze by the blade against the lamé registers a touch with the scoring machine."
So the electronic scoring reinforces right of way, but in the event of mutual touch, right of way is not a 'rule' per se. Right of way reinforces initiative and aggressiveness in all fencing weapons.

Foil is the only one that actually enforces the right of way.

For newcomers to foil fencing, one of the challenging concepts to grasp is the rule of right-of-way. Right of Way is a theory of armed combat that determines who receives a point when the fencers have both landed hits during the same action. The most basic, and important, precept of right of way is that the fencer who started to attack first will receive the point if they hit valid target.

A good fencer and a good Balintawak player will bait you to commit to certain lines so that they can expose you in others. It is very much like chess at mock two. Also, Fencing is a balance of defensive and offensive tactics, but it is ultimately offensive since the objective is to cut or thrust your opponent. Balintawak, as taught in the more acceptable social circles of today is 'defensive' because that is how it can be taught to a wider audience. In its early years it was just as 'offensive' in objective. Still today, with the 'head hunting' finishes as the standard, it is stays 'offensive' because at the higher levels, you don't really use a block so much as make contact with the opponents stick to bind it for a moment as you strike at the head.

I would agree, over time any direct or obvious fencing influence will not be something that shows up in terminology or techinique per se because of different rules.

* Quotes from USA fencing website

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

1) It isn't a similarity in techique so much as the systemic approach that I saw with Bobby Taboada's Cuentada System. The other thing to remember is that if the fencer/prison story is true, the influence would be something that people that had experience in both Euro fencing and FMA (MA/Balintawak/Doce Pares) might see but wouldn't be something that people would actively teach. FMA is more about tactics and application that tradition so some instructors might not even be aware of such a story. They might just look at a Euro fencer and notice the similarities.

2) Bobby also showed the knife to stick/sword connection a few times too. I don't think that the blade is a direct training emphasis, but I think that it is an influence as it is in all FMA that I have had the chance to see.

3) I fenced for 2 years off and on in Wash. DC while I was stationed there. Mainly with the saber. The systemic structure was very similar to what I experienced when Bobby had us on the floor one on one and moved us with striking, verbal and contact cues through drills and such. There were movement similitaries in things like the 6 position blocking and the saber parry set that I learned. Also the 'parry and repost' model is similar to the defense and counter model that Bobby used.

4) Again, the Fencer/Prison connection was something I came across in my research into Ising Atillo a while ago. I can try to find the exact cite that I got that info from, but I do remember it was on a site for a PI based Balintawak group. I'll have more if I can find it again.


1) Well, other than tape I have not had the priviledge to see GM Bobby Taboada and how he teaches. I have seen you and others who have worked with him. As to seeing similiarities, I am still having problems seeing it unless I back out far enough to go they both have weapons and both will try to strike or cut as the case may be, the other person.

2) GM Bobby has shown knife, but like I said in another Balintawak thread here it did not come from Anciong for his Balintawak. The translations can be made and even Manong Ted has made some, so I see them there, but it is not a focus. Balintawak from my understanding and opinion is a stick dueling system when people would settle arguements with a stick. I do not think that time frame will ever be repeated again, yet the optimizations for stick work were made and should be taught for the knowledge and beuaty alone. In the Balintawak I have seen, no middle of the stick strikes or belly strikes which would be made if the stick was actually a blade are taught. I have no problems admitting that GM Bobby may have added in some more techniques or even his instructors to help round or help teach a concept. I just wish credit could go where credit is due.

3) I agree the Traditional Balintawak was and is taught one on one and others may watch. Now GM Bobby may have added in the drills to get more people moving at one time, which is a good technique of teaching. Yet at the Cebu club of GM Anciong, he would teach or Manong Ted would teach, and the rest would watch them with a person. Then up would come the next person and they would work, and so on.

4) I do not doubt or challenge you comments about the Savaadra's being the lead or GM's of the Labanong Fencing Club, and the follow up club of Doces Pares and the comments of Charlemagna. My point is that those systems in this collective all were good, and there were many good teaches or leaders, yet, GM Anciong had his wooden training knife removed due to bruises and blood from his training partners, and he optimized his single stick techniques. Hence my arguement that if I recognize that GM Anciong changed something and made what he did different enough, that it was recognized as something different then one of the Doces Pares then those that have added to the Balintawak they have learned, should also be given credit for what they have done. I am just argueing for consistancy is all. No disrespect meant to any of those teaching and linage or form or what have you of Balintawak.

[Rich Parsons]

As far as direct technique to technique comparison goes, I don't see much of a connection between sabre fencing and balintawak, but I haven't studied either one in depth so there may be things I'm missing. On an abstract level, I do see many common principles.


Having studied for 7+ years multiple times a week in Balintawak, I would have to agree, even with my limited exposure to fencing and sabre fencing in particular.



1. Both approaches emphasize a linear approach to their footwork and movement, though at different ranges. Sabre fencing tends more towards the long and middle ranges with no use of the alive hand allowed, whereas Balintawak favors close quarters and looks to crash and keep the opponent lined up right in front of them at that close range. This differs from many other weapons systems which focus more on triangular or circular footwork.


While it may seem that Balintawak in linear in its foot work it is the body mechanics that makes it non linear in aspect. i.e. your shoulders are not square to your opponent.



2. Both systems seem to be defensively based. Balintawak's basics seems to be focused on a developed good blocking skills, which leads to the ability to trap and control an opponent's weapon. Sabre fencing enforces the right of way requirements where if person A initiates an attack person B must defend before attacking themselves. This is to prevent the habit of trading blows with a weapon, which is something that is highly emphasized in Balintawak. It's just instead of doing a block and a quick riposte as in fencing, you block, control the opponent's weapon and lock it down to set up your shot.


Balintawak might seem Defensive at first, and this is because after the student learns the 12 angles, he learns how to block them and counter attack. And from there, the student is taught the back up moves, which gives them the most amount of room to execute their block, and also putting them in position to try to counter. This is a way of emphasizing the body mechanics and also footwork, so that the student does not generate bad habits while attacking and or gets used to giving their weapon away to their opponent for their management. This way once the student knows how to counter, they can concentrate on attacking smartly with properly places baits.



So in terms of general strategy there are some definite similarities. As far as the actual application, that is partly due to the fact that the two styles play by different rules and use different weapons. Again, I haven't done a lot of either system so if anyone thinks I'm full of it, let me know.

Eric


Eric you are full of it for sure, but "IT" in this case is a desire to learn more. :D

[loki09789]

Hence my arguement that if I recognize that GM Anciong changed something and made what he did different enough, that it was recognized as something different then one of the Doces Pares then those that have added to the Balintawak they have learned, should also be given credit for what they have done. I am just argueing for consistancy is all. No disrespect meant to any of those teaching and linage or form or what have you of Balintawak.

All the other stuff aside, I said the same thing in the post that you cut and paste. I made the analogy between Thai cuisine and 'urban arts' of FMA.

Thai cuisine may have had influences from chinese, japanese...but Thai cooks made it their own when they combined those common materials and ingredients in a unique way.

Same with FMA. Savaadras made Doce Pares distinct from the 'Fencing club' which was further changed with Bacon and so on down the evolutionary line. I agree that these people are creditted with the uniqueness of curriculum and systemization.

My point is that the common thread of a fencing influence has survived if you know both well enough to observe the details that are common from an instructional and stylistic perspective.

Your point about Balintawak and dueling would be why it can share so many similiarities or kept so many of the fencing elements because fencing in its later versions was more of a duelist school than a combatives school as well. It would be reasonable that any benefit that fencing had for euro duelists would also benefit PI duelists.

[loki09789]

1) Well, other than tape I have not had the priviledge to see GM Bobby Taboada and how he teaches. I have seen you and others who have worked with him. As to seeing similiarities, I am still having problems seeing it unless I back out far enough to go they both have weapons and both will try to strike or cut as the case may be, the other person.



Bobby and Ted had great conversations about commonalities in training and associations from what I understand, so I would bet that you would be very comfortable and welcome at a Bobby Seminar.

After rereading this first point I wanted to address the lack of observable connection. It isn't in the movement of the body or the range. The 'trad fencing' system and weapon are too long and require more space than the medio/corto ranges of the rattan stick in Balintawak. The similarities is in the training system, the progression of skills and the focus on reactionary speed and tactics in both. That kind of observation can only come from experiencing instruction in both systems. Similarly, Fencing is best learned in a private/small group setting much like Balintawak.

If there is a local fencing club that you could work in with or at least observe a few times, I think you would recognize some of the things I am mentioning.

[arnisador]

I could see the techniques that are particular to FMA being trained through the European style of organizing a curriculum--much as Traditional Chinese Medicine can now be learned through a Western-style university offering a D.O.M. degree. But, I know too little about either art--Balintawak and sabre--to comment knowledgeably!

[loki09789]

I could see the techniques that are particular to FMA being trained through the European style of organizing a curriculum--much as Traditional Chinese Medicine can now be learned through a Western-style university offering a D.O.M. degree. But, I know too little about either art--Balintawak and sabre--to comment knowledgeably!

Exactly my point on that regard. The Euro structure and format of instruction may have been a great codification of some of the skills and focuses that the Savaadra's already had. All the structure did is create an organizational tool to format that knowledge. There are commonalities in movement as well as far as I am concerned, but that could be due to centuries of interaction with western cultures that would include fencing exposure.

A good link for over view: http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Eskrima

[Epa]

Loki,

Throughout your posts, you make an interesting case for the commonalities between European fencing (be it Spanish or French) and the arts derived from the teachings of the Saavedra family (Doce Pares/Balintawak). One thing I'm not sure about is whether you are making a historical claim or are comparing two martial arts as you have seen them. When you say:




The Euro structure and format of instruction may have been a great codification of some of the skills and focuses that the Savaadra's already had. All the structure did is create an organizational tool to format that knowledge


Are you saying that the Saavedras actually implemented the Euro structure and teaching format when they were teaching in the Labangon Fencing Club/Original Doce Pares?

Or

Are you referring to the more recent standardization of FMA that you were talking about in earlier posts, like with Bobby Taboada's modifications on the older teaching methods.

I'm just not sure exactly which point your trying to make.

Thanks,
Eric

[Cruentus]

3 things...

#1. Noy Anciong was never a boxer. That is false information as far as I know.

#2. European fencing does not appear to have influenced Balintawak in the way that it is being compared here. I train in traditional Balintawak the same way as it was taught by Anciong, and I have an accomplished fencer that trains with my group. He competed and won in college, and was a college coach for fencing. He knows a lot about the historical aspects as well as the sport aspects. Although I do not teach Balintawak even though I could (because if one wants to learn it they can go to my teacher), but the stickwork we train is heavily Balintawak influenced. I have never heard him make a comparison with what he has seen of Balintawak and his background - and in fact he often talks about how different the stickwork is then what he is used too. I am confident that there is no historical connection that has been documented and proven. I can ask him in better detail, but I am pretty sure that we will find no substancial connection.

#3. As far as Filipino and European combat systems go, generally speaking I am sure there was an influence, as cultures cannot collide without influencing each other is some way. But by the time the Saavadre's were teaching, the combat systems would have evolved, making any European influence unrecognizable at that point. What they were training for was a much different game as well, verses what Filipino's were training in the mid-1500's.

Lastly, it is O.K. to make conjectures and hypothesis in these matters, and discuss them over the internet. If your going to make an outright claim, however, you have to provide credable evidence that proves your claim. Without that, you are really just spreading misconceptions about the arts.

Paul Janulis

[G22]

Isnt the common FMA belief that the locals picked up fencing from the Spanish...

[Christopher Umbs]

Check out my post on Modern Arnis to see my feelings about that question.

Chris

[Rich Parsons]

All the other stuff aside, I said the same thing in the post that you cut and paste. I made the analogy between Thai cuisine and 'urban arts' of FMA.


Paul, I never said you never said the above. I never implied you did not. OK? I made a statement of my own.





Same with FMA. Savaadras made Doce Pares distinct from the 'Fencing club' which was further changed with Bacon and so on down the evolutionary line. I agree that these people are creditted with the uniqueness of curriculum and systemization.


Yes, but not everyone is doing this. Those that added in the grouped, to help with the teaching, and even the similiar teaching techniques you mentione between GM Bobby and and fencing should be credited to GM Bobby as they are not there from what I have seen by other instructors.



My point is that the common thread of a fencing influence has survived if you know both well enough to observe the details that are common from an instructional and stylistic perspective.


I agree that fencing has survived, but I do not see it in Balintawak. Now one fo the instructors in the lineage you have seen inbetween GM Anciong and GM Bobby may have added the Fencing influence in, and this is my point, this person should be known, to avoid the confusion later. His proper respect for how he changed the teaching method shoudl be recognized. Like I said, I recognize it for GM Remy, so why not for others.



Your point about Balintawak and dueling would be why it can share so many similiarities or kept so many of the fencing elements because fencing in its later versions was more of a duelist school than a combatives school as well. It would be reasonable that any benefit that fencing had for euro duelists would also benefit PI duelists.


Once you step past the Dueling aspect I do not see any similarities between Balantawak and Fencing. Between other FMA's and Fencing yes, but not Balintawak.

[Rich Parsons]

Bobby and Ted had great conversations about commonalities in training and associations from what I understand, so I would bet that you would be very comfortable and welcome at a Bobby Seminar.


Paul, I never implied that "Bobby and Ted" had anythign but good conversations. I know others might have years ago, but I was not directly involved, so do not comment now.

As to seeing people, I have seen most (* those I can find and or are public *), of the Modern Arnis Family in NA and Europe. I have not seen those of the PI yet.

As to Balintawak, it is on my list and has always been on my list to see some of the others out there. Just time and priorities have prevented it in the last couple of years. Given my personal demeanor and actions, I believe I would be able to go see anyone, and I would not and do not expect any problems, from my side or from anything I have said. Questions asked, to clarify or to get a better understanding, but no game playing.



After rereading this first point I wanted to address the lack of observable connection. It isn't in the movement of the body or the range. The 'trad fencing' system and weapon are too long and require more space than the medio/corto ranges of the rattan stick in Balintawak. The similarities is in the training system, the progression of skills and the focus on reactionary speed and tactics in both. That kind of observation can only come from experiencing instruction in both systems. Similarly, Fencing is best learned in a private/small group setting much like Balintawak.


Hence my previous comments that the person who added in the connections in the teaching style should be credited and respected for their actions.



If there is a local fencing club that you could work in with or at least observe a few times, I think you would recognize some of the things I am mentioning.


Nearest fencing club(s) meet so irregular, and I have tried over the years, and when I have had the chance to work with people, either the instructor moves me from the beginners, because of my FMA experieince in Modern Arnis, or takes me aside, and asks about how I would do something. This is ok, if I am teaching him and he is teaching me and this is our agreement, but when I am paying for lessons, and come in with an empty slate ready, and I teach, it is frustrating. I did have a nice experience with some Oakland SCA people, and I was asked and did teach one person stick & Knife and also Sword & Knife, also double short sword. The problem there was that their rules about weapons, and weapon size, a two handed sword would always "Drive through the smaller weapon", The concept of parry, and or timing the strike to be past you and then moving in and checking was to complex for their rule set. Not enough people were doing the lighter weapons at the time to have competitions. It was fun, but did not last long.

[Rich Parsons]

Are you saying that the Saavedras actually implemented the Euro structure and teaching format when they were teaching in the Labangon Fencing Club/Original Doce Pares?

Thanks,
Eric

Eric,

From what I have seen, the answer is that in Balintawak, per GM Anciong and Manong Ted, is no. Manong Ted tells a story about asking GM Anciong about sinawalis, and GM Anciong states that he does not know them and has never known them. I believe that Paul M's influence into Balintawak is per GM Bobby and in this lineage there may be similarities between the teching of Balintawak and Fencing. And as Paul stated, not the techniques per say but the approach.

[loki09789]

3 things...

#1. Noy Anciong was never a boxer. That is false information as far as I know.

#2. European fencing does not appear to have influenced Balintawak in the way that it is being compared here. I train in traditional Balintawak the same way as it was taught by Anciong, and I have an accomplished fencer that trains with my group. He competed and won in college, and was a college coach for fencing.

#3. As far as Filipino and European combat systems go, generally speaking I am sure there was an influence.....1500's.

{Inserted #4} Lastly, it is O.K. to make conjectures and hypothesis in these matters, and discuss them over the internet. If your going to make an outright claim, however, you have to provide credable evidence that proves your claim. Without that, you are really just spreading misconceptions about the arts.

Paul Janulis

1. Based on my research that includes Bacon Bios from Balitawak groups in PI (Visayan martial arts) via the internet, the boxer information is verified. I would think that it would be disproved long ago in PI by PI residence if it was wrong.

2. I am comparing Balitawaks instructional style to that of Euro Fencing at the time it was introduced to the Savaadra's (i.e. Mentor/Mentee, Maestro and Student - like it would have been taught one on one in a prison cell for example). Of course it will look different technically because of the difference in rules, weapon, tactical goals....but there is a reasonable commonallity in what each art focuses on as skills and abilities as well as the pedagogical format that is used to move students to the mastery levels. It is a conceptual relationship not a technical relationship. Since PI arts really weren't about preserving lineage, the Euro influence may not even be common knowledge to anyone after the Doce Pares clubs.

3. The Euro/PI mix I am referring to would have been around the turn of the 19th to the 20th centuries.

4. Unfortunately, as you have said many times, PI tradition isn't in the business of 'credibility' so much as skill speaking for itself. So, even in the face of credible evidence (Remy's legitimate system inheritance for example) PI'ers and Modern Arnisadors will still disagree on what it legitimate. Even interview information can fall into question if the only basis for 'proof' is that someone never mentioned it. That only means that it was never mentioned.

[loki09789]

1. Paul, I never implied that "Bobby and Ted" had anythign but good conversations. I know others might have years ago, but I was not directly involved, so do not comment now.

2. As to seeing people, I have seen most (* those I can find and or are public *), of the Modern Arnis Family in NA and Europe. I have not seen those of the PI yet.

3. As to Balintawak, it is on my list and has always been on my list to see some of the others out there. Just time and priorities have prevented it in the last couple of years. Given my personal demeanor and actions, I believe I would be able to go see anyone, and I would not and do not expect any problems, from my side or from anything I have said. Questions asked, to clarify or to get a better understanding, but no game playing.

4. Hence my previous comments that the person who added in the connections in the teaching style should be credited and respected for their actions.

5. Nearest fencing club(s) meet so irregular, .....I did have a nice experience with some Oakland SCA people.

1. Rich, safely assume that we are big boys and don't need to waste time with the disclaimers. I was only saying that Ted and Bobby are on good terms and anyone associated with Ted would be recieved like a family member.

2&3. I have my own wish list as well.

4. I am giving credit to the person that introduced the influence when I cite the Savaadras. It was one of their interactions with a Euro Fencer that is what I am referring to in the beginning.

I respect that the FMA in general and possibly the Doce, Balintawak, Modern Arnis lineage in particular has absorbed something that proved useful and did not reject it simply because of differenced in culture or perspectives. That is what makes FMA's unique to other arts. Artistically FMA'ers should adapt, absorb and personalize through an open mind and see through differences in culture, perspective or politics. It takes a strong art and person to be willing to do that. FMA promotes and rewards that strength with skill and growth.

5. Fencing clubs aren't easy to find. SCA (locally) is a good place to get a taste of historical fencing, but the main focus isn't accuracy to tradition and historical fencing as it is in USING fencing to create an idealistic vision of what was.

It is a shame that your exposure is so limited. I think someone already mentioned how fun it can be when you get to use your FMA skills in a new way...really messes with the fencer's heads when you do it too. The exposure to fencing also wakes up the brain to other than FMA attack types as well. It's all training in the end.

[loki09789]

I believe that Paul M's influence into Balintawak is per GM Bobby and in this lineage there may be similarities between the teching of Balintawak and Fencing. And as Paul stated, not the techniques per say but the approach.

Close, but not really totally on target. MY point is that the influence of Euro fencing is there from back in the Doce Pares days, which influenced all down the line.

Exactly my point about the approach and NOT technnique. Of course the technical side is going to have loads of differences simply because of the practical elements of weapon, goals, rules (or lack), .....

[arnisador]

Opinions obviously vary on this issue. Let's try to keep the discussion at a focused, polite level.

-Arnisador
-FMATalk Admin

[Balintawak]

.

[loki09789]

Bart Hubbard turned out to be a great source of info about the Fencer/Doce Pares origins. Here is a clip from an email interview he sent me when I was researching this idea.

"He's [Atillo] mentioned the french fencer on more than one occasion but at one point it was an italian fencer. The main deal is that he was a european. In my opinion, the story is true, but the guy probably wasn't a fencer in the sport sense, but rather a mercenary character (docks thug, enforcer, adventurer, pirate, etc) who knew how to use a sword. Lot's of people in the 1890's did but were not explicitly sport fencers.
[Here I would add that the Euro Fencer may not even be trained in the formal/classical model either.]



Atillo isn't the only one with the story about the european in jail with Saavedra. I've heard it in circles from every Saavedra descended art I've come in contact with. I'm surprised though that no one has though to look at the records to see who was in jail at the time. The Spanish kept meticulous records."

And Bart's historical information on the influence of boxing on PI arts as well.

"On your other point, pretty much all of the old time
eskrimadors spent time boxing. The period from
193?-195? is known as the "Golden Age of Pinoy
Boxing". Boxing was popular on par with basketball
today.
I am an advocate that FMA weapon arts are heavily
influenced by the West."

Bart also mentioned a Mark Mikita as a good interview source for Doce Pares information. If anyone has/had contact with him, the opportunity for another perspective would be great.

[Rich Parsons]

Paul,

I never stated that PI Boxing did not influence western Boxing, nor did I never say that Fencing and Spanish and other influence did not get put into arts in the PI.

What I said, is that in this case, I do not see nor can I support it with my sources for Balintawak. For the Savaadra's and the Doces Pares and even some influence into Modern Arnis, yes I can see and see the influence, but not for Balintawak.

Like I said, an art does not have to be all encompassing to be a good art, nor a fun art to train in.

I agree there were influences, just not as you see them.

Now I grant, like I said that GM Bobby's teachers or personal influences could have easily added in the teaching aspect of fencing, then again, it could be a common teaching tactic that many developed themselves over time. Break it down to the techniques, you certain techniques to keep distance wiht the opponent, and the students all of a sudden learn boady mechanics and foot work and positioning all at once. I have done this myself in Modern Arnis, but no classical training in Fencing. Yet, I grant the possibility there, I just do not see it for Balintawak.

[loki09789]

Paul,

1. I never stated that PI Boxing did not influence western Boxing, nor did I never say that Fencing and Spanish and other influence did not get put into arts in the PI.

2. What I said, is that in this case, I do not see nor can I support it with my sources for Balintawak. For the Savaadra's and the Doces Pares and even some influence into Modern Arnis, yes I can see and see the influence, but not for Balintawak.

3. Like I said, an art does not have to be all encompassing to be a good art, nor a fun art to train in.

4. I agree there were influences, just not as you see them.

5. Now I grant, like I said that GM Bobby's teachers or personal influences could have easily added in the teaching aspect of fencing, then again, it could be a common teaching tactic that many developed themselves over time. Break it down to the techniques, you certain techniques to keep distance wiht the opponent, and the students all of a sudden learn boady mechanics and foot work and positioning all at once. I have done this myself in Modern Arnis, but no classical training in Fencing. Yet, I grant the possibility there, I just do not see it for Balintawak.

1. Rich, I understand that. You really don't need to waste typing time/space with the disclaimers. Specifically, the boxing info was not directed at you or your comments. I don't think I even quoted your post when I wrote the boxing comment.

2. That's fine. You have made it clear that your level of experience with fencing is limited and you can only base your theories on what you know. If you don't see it, you don't see it. It won't impact the quality of your training. I am sure, if it is there, that there are/were instructors that don't see it either and they can still master the art. I am just as sure that, if it isn't there, that making that conceptual connection won't hurt my training either.

3. Not sure where that fits in but I agree.

4. I understand that you don't see them and why. I am posting information that supports my perspective. If you were willing to share your Balintawak source information, I would be open to viewing it. It does seem unlikely that the euro-fencing influence would be in Doce Pares and Modern Arnis but be absent in the linking art of Balintawak IMO, though.

5. As far as any direct fencing influence between Bacon and Taboada is not something that I am aware of personally. If it is there, fine. If not, fine. I did feel that I was on the right path when I mentioned directly to Bobby during a training session that the bait, tactical focus and some of the skill training modallities were very similar to fencing. All I got was a big cheesy grin from him, but that reaction led me to believe that I was on to something theoretically. I didn't push it at the time because he was swinging sticks at me and I was a little more interested in the current training than historical influences...simply put, I didn't want to get hit in the head!

[G22]

What are Balintawak's roots? I am not very educated on the history of the art. Is there Doces Pares in the woodpile?

[Rich Parsons]

What are Balintawak's roots? I am not very educated on the history of the art. Is there Doces Pares in the woodpile?

Tom,

GM Anciong Bacon trained in Doces Pares, but the system is a collection of different systems.

So to say that the Fencing Club was closed and the Doces Pares group was formed and from that was a person who left and formed his own club of Self Defense on Balintawak street, that became known as that Balintawak.

Yet, what people keep forgetting is that GM Anciong had his training dagger taken away from him, as he would actually stab people so they would bleed and or cause bruises.

Being little and not having his training dagger, he started to optimize his own training for the single stick. These optimizations assume that it is a stick, although you can translate to it being a blade, with body and hand position changes.

GM Anciong Bacon also did not do or know any Sinawali's, yet GM Bobby teaches Sinawali's. So some people have modified (* GM Moncal *), Grouped (* Villisin and others *), and added into their system, GM Maranga and also GM Remy Presas, as well as others who did all or none of the above.

So, just because one group teaches something, does not mean it came from GM Anciong. Just because GM Anciong started and was a member of the Doces PAres and Trained and studied under and with the Savaadra's as the case may be, he also changed what he did.

[G22]

So is there any Doces Pares influence in Balintawak?

[Rich Parsons]

1. Rich, I understand that. You really don't need to waste typing time/space with the disclaimers. Specifically, the boxing info was not directed at you or your comments. I don't think I even quoted your post when I wrote the boxing comment.


Discalimers from someone who has nothing nice to say about me, but will not say it to my face? So, I took your past comments about me, and made an assumption, yet, you state now that there was nothing such, and that you meant the best, so, I let you last reply go, yet you seem to need validation in a reply, so here it is. I hope you enjoy.



2. That's fine. You have made it clear that your level of experience with fencing is limited and you can only base your theories on what you know. If you don't see it, you don't see it. It won't impact the quality of your training. I am sure, if it is there, that there are/were instructors that don't see it either and they can still master the art. I am just as sure that, if it isn't there, that making that conceptual connection won't hurt my training either.


As to understanding, I have to make the comment that it is quite clear that your knowledge of Balintawk is next to nothing. The last time we had a discussion about this, I was e-mails and told I needed to contact someone to set me straight on a few issues. I called and we talked, and when he allowed me to speak (* A nice person *), I explained and read to him what I had written and he agreed what I had said was correct. He then asked me who said This . . . ?, and I read him the replies of those involved, and he sounded upset or frustrated and agreed that it was not correct.

Ask GM Bobby, if his instructor(s) in Balintwak taught him knife and or Siniwalis? If they did then please ask him if he knew who added it in? For it was not GM Anciong.

Hence my comment that you try to sound knowledgable, and make others in the art sound less so to increase your standing. Send me GM Bobby's phone number (* Askhim nicely first please. *) and I will call him. If he wishes to call me (* My Number: 248-467-9454 *), I will make my self available to him. I would like to know what you actually training history is with him or another instructor in Balintawak? How many hours of one on time, or is it just a couple of seminars from years ago?



3. Not sure where that fits in but I agree.


It fits as well as anything else in this thread does.



4. I understand that you don't see them and why. I am posting information that supports my perspective. If you were willing to share your Balintawak source information, I would be open to viewing it. It does seem unlikely that the euro-fencing influence would be in Doce Pares and Modern Arnis but be absent in the linking art of Balintawak IMO, though.


My Source is Manong Ted Buot, who trained with GM Anciong Bacon, and tells me stories of him weekly, and my source knew and researched his art, such as asking about Sinawali's and such.

Yet, if you look at the art of Balintawak as taught by GM Anciong Bacon it was a dueling art with sticks, and very much optimized for sticks. These techniques and one on one teaching was done teacher to student so the teacher could correct any issues at the time. Although after time if a peson would not even try to learn something, GM Anciong Bacon would not correct them anymore, unless they asked, or showed improvement.

Knowing 20 years of Modern Arnis and 7+ years of weekly priavte classes in Balintawak, I think I can see fencing and or teaching styles between them.

If I ask an example of something, such as do you know what a High Chair or Limbo or Macarena is? I would think you do not, and I know these terms were added in by Manong Ted, so you see, I can open my eyes and see the progression from Teacher to Student to the next generation of teacher, yet I do not presume that all families do exactly the same thing or have the same name, and at the time GM Anciong did not have names for many of the moves and would say "do it like this."



5. As far as any direct fencing influence between Bacon and Taboada is not something that I am aware of personally. If it is there, fine. If not, fine. I did feel that I was on the right path when I mentioned directly to Bobby during a training session that the bait, tactical focus and some of the skill training modallities were very similar to fencing. All I got was a big cheesy grin from him, but that reaction led me to believe that I was on to something theoretically. I didn't push it at the time because he was swinging sticks at me and I was a little more interested in the current training than historical influences...simply put, I didn't want to get hit in the head!


There is no connection to classical fencing and Balintawak. The connection you are tryiong to present is like saying that Analytical Geometry and Trig are simliar in that they both use math.

All martial arts are similiar as there are a limited ways to effectively move the body, and accomplish the task, yet, they do not have to be directly related, even if there is a similarity.

[Rich Parsons]

So is there any Doces Pares influence in Balintawak?

From what I know the influence is in the art that influence GM Anciong Bacon in his early days, but even the San Miguel of the Doces Pares is not a direct relationship to Balintawak. Did it influence a man, I am sure, but I do not think there is a direct one to one relationship between the two. Although I grant that many who trained in one also trained in the other in the early days of Balintawak and later the issue between these two "Arts" or Clubs is that of the students of students, as GM Anciong and Manong Ted could stop by any other club and or person's home and be welcomed and treated with respect, be they together or by themselves.

[G22]

http://fmatalk.com/showpost.php?p=2&postcount=1

[PeteNerd]

So is there any Doces Pares influence in Balintawak?

That's a trick question. Anciong Bacon was an early member of the Doce Pares club. He used to poke people too much with his training dagger so they took it away from him. That's part of the reason that Balintawak is a single stick art, because Bacon wasn't allowed to use the training dagger. I belive he had a falling out with some of the members and eventually he left the club and started his own. Many other styles have came out of the early doce pares club also san miguel escrima and victor cagadas black dragon doce pares. I would say there is a Doce Pares influence on Balintawak in the areas that I mentioned before. There is little to no influence from Doce Pares in the state it exists today. As far as techniques and training I don't think there is much influence from Doce Pares, other than helping Bacon figure out what he didn't want his system to be. All the strikes are direct, simple, effective. There are no showy moves, no stick twirling, other things that are associated with Doce Pares.

Peter

[Cruentus]

So many people in the martial arts like to make claims, faking expertise with little to no supporting evidence to support the claim. This case presented here is all too common of a trend.

Unfortunately, with historical evidence of many of the arts, we are left with anecdotal evidence rather then more credible proof. However, just because this is the case, this does not mean that one can make up **** and expect everyone else to eat it.

Anciong was not a boxer. He was a fighter, yes, and was well noted for that. There were a few cases where people would ask him about empty hand application, and I know one of these people who asked was a boxer. But, this does not mean that Anciong got in the ring, but the gloves on, and went to town. Also, this does not mean that Anciong's Balintawak has an empty hand system. This just means that he was an expert fighter whose opinion was respected. If anyone can provide credible evidence of one example of Anciong boxing (not just empty hand fighting, but actually boxing), then I will stand corrected. And no... anecdotal blurbs from questionable sources on the net don't count.

European fencing did not directly influence Balintawak, or the Labangon Fencing Club for that matter. I would be the first one to jump up and down excited over this if it were true, because I have great admiration and respect for European combat systems. But, unfortunately, there is no credible evidence to support this claim. There are no prison records of the Saavadre's being jailed with a noted fencer of any type. There is no evidence of European combat systems being directly influential on the Labangon Fencing Club. If anyone can show credible evidence to prove an influence, then I will stand corrected. And no... anecdotal blurbs from questionable sources on the net don't count.

Now, I love boxing and Euro arts. So, believe me, if credible evidence exists that these claims are true, then I will be on board and excited about it. But, unfortunately, the evidence does not exist, making the claims mere armchair hypotheses. It's good to wonder about these things and ask questions, but one has to ask himself why someone would go as far as to make claims like these without supporting facts.

Paul

[loki09789]

Anciong was not a boxer.

European fencing did not directly influence Balintawak, or the Labangon Fencing Club for that matter.


THe type of boxing that I am referring to is not the sport boxing environment that is common to today. I am talking about boxing clubs/programs like PAL boxing programs, corner martial arts clubs, and such. My point was that, according to sources from PI, Ancion Bacon had boxing in his resume of arts. That is all. No different than saying that western wrestling was in your resume of martial arts experience because you did it in High School, like myself and many other kids. Everything can be an influence in your training now, so it could be then too. The likelihood of Bacon having boxing experience is high if you are open to Bart's comments about that period of time as well.

I am making theoretical comments. I am supporting those ideas with information. If you are making outright claims about what was or was not, I would appreciate supporting evidence of your own that my theory is not possible or probable. Disagreement is fine. But this is starting to look like your trying to prove me wrong. That requires evidence of it's own.

I find it disheartening that the integrity, accuracy or honor of the PI Balintawak Escrimadors that are associated with Visayan Martial Arts, a cite by PI Escrimadors and about Balintawak, is considered less than credible. I don't think I have seen any sources cited that are any more or less 'credible' in the past.

As Bart stated in the posted interview, no one to date that he is aware of as researched the prison records, but the story is common knowledge to those who train in Doce Pares because of their direct contact with the founders of Doce Pares.

This to me is as credible as it is going to get, much like any anecdotal evidence such as interview/comments in passing from T.Buot or other Balintawak instructors. By this logic, Rich's stance is no more credible because his source is anecdotal.

I am staying on topic, showing my supporting data for my theories and not dredging anything else up. I thought that was this whole new forum was about.

[loki09789]

[quote=Rich Parsons]There is no connection to classical fencing and Balintawak. The connection you are tryiong to present is like saying that Analytical Geometry and Trig are simliar in that they both use math.
[quote]

Please understand that I am not talking about 'classical fencing.' The idea that constant interaction with Euros would have left some euro fencing traces on FMA is generally accepted.

I am talking about fencing influence through Doce Pares because of a common prison sentence. A story that seems to be common knowledge at the Doce Pares level and, based on your own understanding of Bacon's timeline at Doce Pares, would probably have been known to Bacon as well.

Bart did a good job of contextualizing the fencing that the Savaadras would have been exposed to - 'street fighting' equivalent. Not the formal/structured fencing practices of an upper class gentleman carrying a rapier per se.

That is all.

[arnisador]

I am staying on topic, showing my supporting data for my theories and not dredging anything else up. I thought that was this whole new forum was about.

Definitely! Everyone, let's please keep on track!

-Arnisador
-FMATalk Admin

[loki09789]

From what I know the influence is in the art that influence GM Anciong Bacon in his early days, ... Did it influence a man, I am sure, but I do not think there is a direct one to one relationship between the two.

Rich, that is my point too. I just see the Euro Fencing influence through the Savaadra's as part of this influence. Obviously we differ on how significant that influence is, but we seem to agree on the possibility that Doce Pares was an influence on Bacon's Balintawak.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

THe type of boxing that I am referring to is not the sport boxing environment that is common to today. I am talking about boxing clubs/programs like PAL boxing programs, corner martial arts clubs, and such. My point was that, according to sources from PI, Ancion Bacon had boxing in his resume of arts.
Well I guess the question here is how reliable are your sources?

Master Ray Galang has recently published a book called “Warrior Arts of the Philippines” which has a rather large section on GM Bacon. As I recall none of contributors made any reference to Bacon having a background in boxing. In addition I train with Manong Ted Buot, who is probably the last of Bacon’s 1st generation students. During one of my classes with him I specifically asked if Bacon was a boxer and his response was no.

Now let’s make one thing clear. Many off the programs that split of from Bacon’s original club may have added things to the program which may include boxing, but according to someone how was there it had no influence on the original system.

:bow:

[loki09789]

Well I guess the question here is how reliable are your sources?

Master Ray Galang has recently published a book called “Warrior Arts of the Philippines” which has a rather large section on GM Bacon. As I recall none of contributors made any reference to Bacon having a background in boxing. In addition I train with Manong Ted Buot, who is probably the last of Bacon’s 1st generation students. During one of my classes with him I specifically asked if Bacon was a boxer and his response was no.

Now let’s make one thing clear. Many off the programs that split of from Bacon’s original club may have added things to the program which may include boxing, but according to someone how was there it had no influence on the original system.

:bow:

Tim,

Here is the website: http://www.visayanmartialarts.com/
I already addressed the sadness I feel when the integrity of a PI based Balinatawak art website is questioned so readily. What proof is there that it isn't credible? What if the simple truth is that the topic just never came up in Galang's research? I would think that there would be some integrity in a website about FMA, by PI nationals that live and train in Cebu City. If they were incredulous, wouldn't the local 'legitimate' schools be ready to keep them honest?

Again, a 'no mention of' comment is no proof either way of a point. Also, based on Janulis' own standards, a personal rememberance/interview comment is only anecdotal at best and therefore not credible enough to convince some.

I am not calling Ted Buot a liar or anything close to that. I am saying that if the evidence that I am citing is not satifactory based on the source information (interviews, citation sources like web text from PI sources....) then an interview from any source is equally unsatisfactorily anecdotal. Janulis' standards not mine.

I would think that a Website text publication/claim would have to be as verifiabe as any hard copy text. They are both subject to viewer scrutiny and could lead to consequences of falsification.

Based on that, we don't have any conclusive 'credible' data that proves anything substantially about Bacon's boxing experience. On that I am willing to agree.

This is a tangent from the fencing/Doce Pares lineage but it did bring to light what will satisfy the 'credibility' requirement for some folks.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I think what we must remember that just because it is on a website doesn't mean it's accurate. I remember one Balintawak master made some claims in print and recanted them after being confronted by someone who had the facts and was there.

We must look to see how far from the source our Intel is coming from. In my case, a first generation student. In others 3rd, 4th or even 5th generation, this can contribute to less than accurate information.

As far as the fencing goes, I don't see it. I've put much time into fencing in myself. It was SCA fencing, but I was taught by people who where classical instructors. I can see how fencing has influenced some arts, but I don’t see it in either Modern Arnis or Balintawak.

Unfortunately I won’t be able to participate on this forum much for the next week and a half. I leave in the morning for a ten day seminar tour in Sweden. I’ll check in when I can, until then I’ll see you all later.


:bow:

[G22]

I think what we must remember that just because it is on a website doesn't mean it's accurate.

Same thing for books then no?

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Same thing for books then no?

That' why I asked GM Buot. He was there!

[arnisador]

That' why I asked GM Buot. He was there!

If you can't rely on sources like that, how can you hope to know anything?

[G22]

There were movement similitaries in things like the 6 position blocking and the saber parry set that I learned. Also the 'parry and repost' model...

To keep this on track. From what little I know about Balintawak, I must agree that the blocking techniques do in fact seem very similar to block/parry techniques in Saber fencing (that I have dabbled in slightly as well). It just seems to move more from the shoulder with the stick and more from the wrist with the blade.....

This is foil, but the basic parries here are similar too...
http://www.oneonta.edu/development/clubs/fencing/phed160/parries_diagrammed.asp

Heres Saber...
http://www.totheescrime.org/ifc/BEAUMONT/Sabre/

some of those those look really similar. All except for the low blocks which are really pretty much the same "angle" but with a different grip and tip orientation.

If I could find some Parry/Riposte diagrams...I am curious to see if theres any similarity.

[G22]

This of course is only my opinion. I in no way have enough training or experience to make any factual claims. But from what little I know I can see some similarity.

[Cruentus]

P. Martin,

What you are presenting here is not theoretical, because theory would require credible supporting data. What you are presenting is mere idle speculation. I don’t care what you do with that, just so long as anyone else reading this understands what it is.

Also, don’t try to put this off on me to PROVE you wrong, because anyone with a brain knows that when you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. You made the claim, Martin, so the burden of proof is on you, not me to prove a negative.

And since you brought it up for discussion, let’s talk about my "standard" of evidence, and method of making historical claims. Although you tried to misrepresent my "standard" here as something impossible to reach in order to level the playing field, you’ll find my standard and method to be similar to that of most historians, and easily attainable if a claim is true.

There are 3 tests that evidence should have to pass before it can even begin to be considered credible.

Transmission Test: This is where you check the trustworthiness of the evidence or claim by looking at the facts that we have available. There are no facts that support the idea that Anciong was a boxer, or that the Labarong fencing club was influenced by traditional European fencing to even begin to check your claim. Your attempts at providing evidence (for example trying to tie the names "Doce Pares" or the word "fencing" in the name of Saavadre’s club to Europe to then make the leap to conclude that European fencing influenced the club) are a far cry from anything factual.
Internal Test: This is where we look at elements within the evidence provided to see if there are contradictions with the claim. There are many things within Balintawak that points to major contradictions to the idea that it was influenced by Euro-fencing. Namely, why don’t you find Saber or Foil or Eepe(sp?) work in Doce Pares or Balintawak, period? Why is traditional Balintawak far different then Euro fencing? Why don’t many of the Filipino masters of this lineage reference Euro fencing? In fact credible masters don’t agree with your idea. Your claims don’t even begin to pass this test.
External Test: This is where the claim or evidence is supported by sources outside of itself. There is nothing that holds weight in combat history to support your ideas.
Source Credibility Test: This is important mostly when only anecdotal evidence is available. This is also important when dealing with primary sources. When 2 sources contradict each other, you look to the source that is the most credible. So, you can’t reduce the word of a first generation Student of Anciong to that of a blurb on a website put out by a 3rd or 4th generation Balintawak player, for example. Not all evidence holds the same weight. Also, motive of sources is important to consider. For example, if one has commercial interest in a claim and it contradicts someone who has little interests in his claim, then that might be a factor in determining credibility. Regardless, it is important to understand here that not all evidence has the same weight.So, there you go. If you want to put up any real evidence to your claims, then cool. If you want to idly speculate, then that’s cool too. Just realize the difference.

Paul

[Christopher Umbs]

This is foil, but the basic parries here are similar too...
http://www.oneonta.edu/development/clubs/fencing/phed160/parries_diagrammed.asp

Heres Saber...
http://www.totheescrime.org/ifc/BEAUMONT/Sabre/


Of course some of these parries only work if you are using and being attacked with a fairly light weapon. In foil the parries of 6 and 8 weren't used with the older, heavier blades. The saber parries here are for dueling sabre, not military sabre (see http://ahfaa.org/saber.htm for military). For example my cane style is mostly based on Spanish/Italian sabre, but I won't use parries 5 & 6 with it - I'll use high 1 and 7. When I enter FMA tournaments I use the foil/epee parries of 1,2,3,4,5 and 7 (called half circle in the older weapons) and sabre 1,2,3,4 and 7 (in regular, low and high variations).

Chris

[loki09789]

P. Martin,

What you are presenting here is not theoretical, because theory would require credible supporting data. What you are presenting is mere idle speculation. I don’t care what you do with that, just so long as anyone else reading this understands what it is.

Also, don’t try to put this off on me to PROVE you wrong, because anyone with a brain knows that when you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. You made the claim, Martin, so the burden of proof is on you, not me to prove a negative.



Paul J.,

Your stance is that I am wrong. I have posed a theory: Educated guess. I have supported it with things that I think give it a reasonable possibility. If you disagree - to the point that it isn't even probable (I'm referring to the fencing influence in Doce Pares/Balitawak/MA) then that is something that you must prove if that is your position. Basic debate approach/tactics. Your not proving a negative, your proving your stance that my position is totally impossible and therefore untrue because my stance is that it is only a realistic possibility.

By no means am I saying that it is absolutely true or real.
I have acknowledged that most/all of the stuff that supports opinions on these types of discussions is at best anecdotal. I am not trying to say it is gospel. Heck, even Bart Hubbard is of the opinion that Western Culture/arts are influencial in Doce Pares/Balitawak as referenced by the quoted interview response.

Why all the hubbub about this topic?

The rest of that stuff is in the texts and instruction I do regularly with my higher level students. Those still are not examples of you leading by example with that kind of credibility screening. It is solid information though.

This is still only a theory guys (Paul J, et al). I respect your right to disagree with it. I don't think you have effectively 'proven' that it isn't a possible reality though.

I have already acknowledged that any proof of Ancion Bacon having boxing experience or not is inconclusive at best based on your own standard of credible evidence. But, I still don't see any proof that my sources are incredulous or wrong.

[loki09789]

If you can't rely on sources like that, how can you hope to know anything?

By the strictist definition, a citation like this only proves that Ted Buot believes that Ancion Bacon did not box. It doesn't prove that he (Bacon) really did or didn't.

[loki09789]

And since you brought it up for discussion, let’s talk about my "standard" of evidence, and method of making historical claims. Although you tried to misrepresent my "standard" here as something impossible to reach in order to level the playing field, you’ll find my standard and method to be similar to that of most historians, and easily attainable if a claim is true.
Paul



By no means am I saying that your standard is impossible to reach, only that I don't think I have really seen any volumous application of what you were referring to as 'credible' evidence. I simply am admitting that based on that standard, most or all of what is up here, MT or other places is anecdotal at best. By you, me and most/all of internet posters.

Can we please stay on topic?

[loki09789]

Here's a simple question:

Would it seem likely that the teaching of basic strikes and defenses as an introduction, then a seemingly unstructured, 'random' progression of techniques and tactics would be the way that two people exchanging knowledge with nothing better to do might use?

It isn't proof by any means, but if it does seem likely that two fighters would banter in a random format to kill time in a prison cell AND that the 'ungrouped' approach of Balintawak as the next evolution from Doce Pares is taught in this way, then there is some similiarity between that Fencing source and those arts.

It seems logical to me when you combine it with some of the other things. Reminds me of the after training rap sessions, the backyard work outs of my younger days and the way that we use to shoot the poop when I came across another martial artist in the service during the hurry up and wait games. Also reminds me of the USA Hockey coaches training that promotes allowing players to apply skills in free play training to develop creativity and natural responsiveness.

Much like the military where collecting enough unsecure info can lead to secure/secret conclusions, collect enough anecdotal evidence and you can come up with something that is at least a reasonable possibility.

Your welcome to disagree if you want. But if the point is to prove me totally false, that is going to take info by the same standard of credibility.

[Cruentus]

No Martin. You have not posed up a theory or an educated guess because you have no credable evidence to support your claim. Therefore, it is idle speculation. And, it is not up to me or anyone else to disprove your idle speculation, it is up to you to prove it. Also, don't try to twist your arguement now to save face. No one is saying that European culture couldn't have been an influence on Filipino culture; it is absurd to think that there couldn't have been that influence. You made a claim and presented it as "theory," that being that the original Labangong fencing club was directly influenced by Euro fencing. Myself, and most of us are saying that this is probably not true because you have no evidence to back up the claim. And, the arguement isn't over what "could have" happened, either. You made a claim without evidence without any disclaimer that this is only speculation what-so-ever until you were called you out on it. Now your trying to transform your arguement and clarify to save face.

Why all the hubbub? Because this is a clear case of you running to the latest internet forum and trying to look like an expert in something that you clearly have limited knowledge on. Some of us who have had previous experiences with you get a little tired of your behavior, and in this case, I am not letting it slide. So, you can make any claim you want to try to sound credible and expert-like on a forum; I just hope that people have the chance to read this to realize that you aren't.

Paul

[Cruentus]

By no means am I saying that your standard is impossible to reach, only that I don't think I have really seen any volumous application of what you were referring to as 'credible' evidence. I simply am admitting that based on that standard, most or all of what is up here, MT or other places is anecdotal at best. By you, me and most/all of internet posters.

Can we please stay on topic?

Also, your not a moderator, so we don't need you telling any of us how to behave...

Paul

[loki09789]

No Martin.

1. No one is saying that European culture couldn't have been an influence on Filipino culture; it is absurd to think that there couldn't have been that influence. You made a claim and presented it as "theory," that being that the original Labarong fencing club was directly influenced by Euro fencing. That influence went through Balintawak and into Modern Arnis.

2. Myself, and most of us are saying that this is probably not true because you have no evidence to back up the claim.

3. You made a claim without evidence without any disclaimer that this is only speculation what-so-ever until you were called you out on it.

4. Why all the hubbub? Because this is a clear case of you running to the latest internet forum and trying to look like an expert in something that you clearly have limited knowledge on.

5. Some of us who have had previous experiences with you get a little tired of your behavior, and in this case, I am not letting it slide.

6. So, you can make any claim you want to try to sound credible and expert-like on a forum; I just hope that people have the chance to read this to realize that you aren't.

Paul

1. Actually my point was that Doce Pares had a euro fencing influence through interaction between one of the Savaadras and a Euro fencer. THis seems to be common knowledge in the Doce Pares circles if not in Balintawak.

2. I do have supporting details that are anecdotal at best...I have admitted that, as well as that it is probable as a theory.

3. I think the IMO is a disclaimer of 'my theory' which is clear in the post that Parson cut and paste here. Also the theory comments are hair splitting for just some internet chat.

4. I never claimed any expertise in anything.

5. The point of this new forum is not to dredge up the past, personal issues or other forum topics.

6. I wouldn't put it up there if I didn't want people to read it.

I am sorry that people seem to have a hard time separating the message from the messenger.

I'll make this my last post on this topic if people are having a hard time being civil in return.

I am not a moderator, but then neither are you. I was making a request, not telling people how to behave.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

By the strictist definition, a citation like this only proves that Ted Buot believes that Ancion Bacon did not box. It doesn't prove that he (Bacon) really did or didn't.

Personally, I'll trust the first had accounts.

:bow:

[loki09789]

Personally, I'll trust the first had accounts.

:bow:

OKay, breaking my own rule here.

I would agree that Ted's rememberances would be pretty reliable. Not fool proof but definitely worthy of trust. I would also trust the Visayan Martial arts info and Bart Hubbard's information as well though. So the results are inconclusive at best. Ted as a first generation student is on par IMO with a Cebu city based Balintawak Organization's website because any discrepencies/inaccuracies would be held in check by local artists. Some say he did, some say he didn't. Not everyone knows everything about someone else. I am sure that there are things that some people know about you or I that others don't. Just the nature of informal interaction. So in the case of Doce Pares, there is a vulgate story of a fencer in the origins. THere is not in the case of Bacon and boxing.

Anecdotal evidence isn't automatically 'bad' IMO.

If anyone finds out a reason for me not to take these sources seriously, I will definitely explore more deeply.

[G22]

No Martin. You have not posed up a theory or an educated guess because you have no credable evidence to support your claim. Therefore, it is idle speculation. And, it is not up to me or anyone else to disprove your idle speculation, it is up to you to prove it. Also, don't try to twist your arguement now to save face. No one is saying that European culture couldn't have been an influence on Filipino culture; it is absurd to think that there couldn't have been that influence. You made a claim and presented it as "theory," that being that the original Labangong fencing club was directly influenced by Euro fencing. Myself, and most of us are saying that this is probably not true because you have no evidence to back up the claim. And, the arguement isn't over what "could have" happened, either. You made a claim without evidence without any disclaimer that this is only speculation what-so-ever until you were called you out on it. Now your trying to transform your arguement and clarify to save face.

Why all the hubbub? Because this is a clear case of you running to the latest internet forum and trying to look like an expert in something that you clearly have limited knowledge on. Some of us who have had previous experiences with you get a little tired of your behavior, and in this case, I am not letting it slide. So, you can make any claim you want to try to sound credible and expert-like on a forum; I just hope that people have the chance to read this to realize that you aren't.

Paul


Originally Posted by loki09789
The Savaadra's (sp?) had a family member that was in jail with a French trained fencer (I believe a Euro as well) according to legend. This man traded skills with the French trained fencer during his prison term. They exchanged training info to pass the time.

The Savaadra's were either the founders or early plank holders in Doce Pares. According to Ising Atillo's internet info, the fencing influence was blended with the Savaadra's prior training in FMA.

Doce Pares came first, then came Balintawak and then Modern Arnis. That is a simplified lineage of one one of the arts (Balintawak) that influenced GM RP's Modern Arnis.

My personal opinion, though not necessarily popular, is that Doce Pares and Balintawak arts are PRIMARILY fencing influenced with boxing and some other less influencial FMA indiginous arts. RP brought more FMA indiginous arts to the table in MA because of his varied experience.

If you notice the parallel between sabre fencing and the single stick or stick and dagger emphasis (and style of movement - or lack) in Balintawak, it is a very close stylist comparison. Anciong Bacon was a boxer as well, so that made its way into Balintawak as well. Early Modern Arnis, if you have copies of any of the vids/books looks very similar to Balintiwak in this way.

As GM RP developed Modern Arnis, he had included influences of other fighting systems to round it out and beef up the empty hand portions. Wally Jay SJJ, Shotokan, Ocho Ocho, Kenpo...all were influencial when RP saw how it fit into the flow of MA.

Don't get me wrong, I would still be willing to call Doce Pares and Balitawak FMA's because they put their fingerprint on what they learned. Much like "Thai cuisine" is close to Chinese or Japanese in some ways because of some common ingredients and cooking techniques but has a distinct "Thai" signature. I would NOT say that Doce Pares, Balintawak or to a degree Modern Arnis could be called indiginous or 'ancient' FMA's though. Some of the more tribal based arts, Silat influenced arts would be 'older' in that regard.

I too saw the fencing similarities from my (brief) saber training years ago, whether the current similarities are systemic or just physiological limits on how much variety there can be in swinging a stick/sword I don't know. But there is some decent anecdotal evidence to show that fencing played a part to some degree both ancient and modern.

WTF?? Whats is the big deal here? People cant post their opinions/thoughts w/o having to PROVE IT!?? If ya dont believe its right ya dont believe its right. He clearly stated it was his opinion, and he provided other sources that backed his opinion up. Whats the big deal? Plenty of people post like they are experts on topics they have no real business pretending to be. Lets not get started there.

[arnisador]

We're now arguing about arguing. Everyone, please, confine future discussion in this thread to fencing and arnis.

-Arnisador
-FMATalk Admin

[G22]

OK.

http://www.contactkinetics.com/custom3.html



Our Balintawak Arnis (Escrima) class is scheduled to be taught by Wayne Maksylewich, with assistance from senior students.

Wayne started training in the Filipino Arts in 1979, and has studied Cinco Teros and Batanguena; Modern Arnis; Balintawak Cuentada Arnis; Boxing and Muay Thai, with such luminaries as Maestro Rudy Cosico; Professor Remy Presas and Grand Master Bobby Taboada. Balintawak Arnis Cuentada

- a very short summary

The Philippines has a number of martial arts known collectively as arnis or eskrima. They emphasize the use of a stick or various blade weapons, and most incorporate a variety of punches, kicks, joint locks and grappling. A rattan stick is used as the primary training tool.

Balintawak Arnis Cuentada was developed in the early 1900’s in the Philippine city of Cebu by Venancio (Anciong) Bacon who combined several styles of arnis as well as boxing, grappling and Jui Jitsu. The style is named after Balintawak street where Bacon opened his first school, and the cuentada refers to the counter-to-counter nature of the style.

The student is taught basic strikes, basic blocks and counters to the basic strikes. The instructor then introduces faster and random attacks and counters. This is gradually built upon, with counters to counters (‘cuentada’), using. hand and leg traps and joint locks. The practice is at close range close where the empty hand can touch the opponent’s shoulder.

No fencing mentioned, but it does specifically mention boxing.

[G22]

These sword guys had an interesting (and civil) discussion about fencing and FMA in general.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28340&highlight=Spanish+Filipino

[Cruentus]

We're now arguing about arguing. Everyone, please, confine future discussion in this thread to fencing and arnis.

-Arnisador
-FMATalk Admin

I have nothing more to say on the topic as of now, as I have made my points.

[loki09789]

I know I said that I was done posting, but I found some documentation that may seem more credible. I want to thank Tim H. for pointing me in the direction of that resource.

In the Warrior Arts of the Phillipines book by Reynaldo Galang there is an interesting comment.

In the bio section on V.Bacon second paragraph, Galang makes the point that Bacon was a direct student of the Saveedras (as spelled in the text) and a close family friend at the L. Fencing club. Bacon went with the Saveedras to the Doce Pares club.

Sorry I didn't cut and paste a direct quote. The excerpt comes up as a Adobe file and I'm not that versed on how to pull text from that.

If anyone is good at that, I would appreciate it if they would tell me how. Then I can drop in the quote.

Now, I can see a logical link that supports that fencing may have influenced Doce Pares and therefore Balintawak. V.Bacon would have studied with the Saveedras for quite some time, possibly picked up some of that fencing influence and carried it with him into Balintawak.

[loki09789]

These sword guys had an interesting (and civil) discussion about fencing and FMA in general.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28340&highlight=Spanish+Filipino

Good post. I never considered the link between FMA/Fencing because of the numbered striking system. The strong similiarities between the patterns in both fencing and FMA is cool as well.

[Epa]

Loki,

I'm assuming that the logical connection is that the Labangon Fencing Club has the word fencing in it, as opposed to Eskrima/Arnis or a more traditional term for FMA. That's certainly one connection, but I think we should address the possibility that the term fencing does not refer to the Western Martial Art of fencing, but the more general activity of dueling with weapons.
This is similar to the way that Chinese Martial Arts used the term boxing (like Robert Smith's Chinese Boxing Masters and Methods) to refer to the arts and called Chinese Martial Artists "boxers" (as in the Boxer Rebellion). I don't think any of the CMA practitioners would assert that "Chinese boxing" had any relation to western boxing, but they used the same term. This term was not only used by westerners like Smith, but I believe there were several Chinese Boxing organizations that used that term in Taiwan (run by Chinese masters) at the time Smith was studying. I'd have to check my copy of Masters and Methods to be sure, but I believe Chen Pan Ling ran one such organization, though I am going from memory.
This is certainly a possibility with martial arts, especially when two cultures are mixing. In fact the term eskrima is largely considered derivative of a Spanish word, I think it is esgrima which means fencing. This term came to prominence during the Spanish occupation. With the arrival of the Americans it would make sense that English would override some of the older Spanish term. Since the founding of the Labangon Fencing Club was in 1920, that would give the Filipinos some time to absorb American culture, especially in a port city like Cebu City.
I've also been told by Guro Dan Inosanto that the Americans formally introduced many western sports to the Philippines, such as boxing, basketball and sport fencing in the hopes that it would give different cultural groups a competitive outlet that wasn't too violent. He also mentioned that his father was the sabre champion of their island. Again in a fairly major city like Cebu City it would seem like there would be at least one sport fencing club. In organizing their own groups, it seems like the Filipinos used western groups as models. You can see it in the early organization of the Doce Pares, the way they had a president, a vice president, a treasurer... So it's possible that they also adopted the term.
Here's one webresource that confirms some of the linguistic points.
http://web.sa.sc.edu/fasa/arnis.htm
Now I'm not saying this is how it was because I wasn't there, but I think it's an equally valid possibilty so we're stuck at a point where we need more evidence. I think the best thing would be for us to find any documents from the Labangon Fencing Club, if they exist since all of the original members are dead now. There might be something in old Doce Pares records. Does anyone know of such records, preferably someone in the Philippines that might be able to check?

Eric

[loki09789]

Loki,

I'm assuming that the logical connection is that the Labangon Fencing Club has the word fencing in it, as opposed to Eskrima/Arnis or a more traditional term for FMA. That's certainly one connection, but I think we should address the possibility that the term fencing does not refer to the Western Martial Art of fencing, but the more general activity of dueling with weapons.

This is similar to the way that Chinese Martial Arts used the term boxing (like Robert Smith's Chinese Boxing Masters and Methods) to refer to the arts and called Chinese Martial Artists "boxers" (as in the Boxer Rebellion). Eric

No, that is not the logical assumption or theory that I am working from on this topic. I am saying that V.Bacon was a close friend and student of the Saveedras. He went with them to the Doce Pares club. At the Doce Pares club, the Saveedras introduced the fencing exposure from a prison term that one of them served with a Euro fencer trained inmate. That training would have been handed down to V.Bacon as student and close friend. As the founder of Balintawak, those influences would have manifested there as well. From there it found its way into Modern Arnis...If you read the link in G22's post above, there are some examples of strong similarities that could support a fencing/FMA link in a modern sense.

As far as 'Boxing' between Western and Chinese...whole 'nother can of worms, but consider the amount of Euro/Chinese contact in port cities where arts like "Wing Chun" would have evolved. Again, possibility, not fact.

[Epa]

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

Do you happen to know which Saveedra was serving the prison sentence or have a rough idea of when it happened or where he was imprisoned? I'd be interested in following up on this research, but at the moment there's not a lot to go on for research. You mentioned that Bart Hubbard confirmed this story for you. Do you remember which Doce Pares instructors confirmed it for him? If we could trace it up the lineage, it might be easier to get more facts to work from.

Best,
Eric

[loki09789]

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

Do you happen to know which Saveedra was serving the prison sentence or have a rough idea of when it happened or where he was imprisoned? I'd be interested in following up on this research, but at the moment there's not a lot to go on for research. You mentioned that Bart Hubbard confirmed this story for you. Do you remember which Doce Pares instructors confirmed it for him? If we could trace it up the lineage, it might be easier to get more facts to work from.

Best,
Eric

You could contact Bart Direct for that info as he is a member and Mod on MT and at least a lurking member here if I remember correctly. He also has a great website if you do a search with Bart Hubbard, Doce Pares that would get you in email contact with him very quickly.

[PeteNerd]

No, that is not the logical assumption or theory that I am working from on this topic. I am saying that V.Bacon was a close friend and student of the Saveedras. He went with them to the Doce Pares club. At the Doce Pares club, the Saveedras introduced the fencing exposure from a prison term that one of them served with a Euro fencer trained inmate. That training would have been handed down to V.Bacon as student and close friend. As the founder of Balintawak, those influences would have manifested there as well. From there it found its way into Modern Arnis...If you read the link in G22's post above, there are some examples of strong similarities that could support a fencing/FMA link in a modern sense.

As far as 'Boxing' between Western and Chinese...whole 'nother can of worms, but consider the amount of Euro/Chinese contact in port cities where arts like "Wing Chun" would have evolved. Again, possibility, not fact.

You have an interesting theory, but you are pretty much grasping at straws and i think this next quote is where you go wrong.


It isn't a similarity in techique so much as the systemic approach that I saw with Bobby Taboada's Cuentada System

Bacon's style of was all random attacks. The groups and method of teaching were added later by Attorney Villasin and Teofilo Velez. Other people added the systematic approach to teaching after the fact. That's just my two cents. I also don't think there is a huge link from Balintawak to Modern Arnis.

Pete

[PeteNerd]

Here is an interesting article about the origins of arnis. There might have been fencing influence in the origins of escrima and arnis, but most likely it was hundreds of years ago. I don't think there is any recent and very direct influence on Balintawak, but it's probably there in Eskrima in general from way back

here is a quote from http://www.cebueskrima.s5.com/custom3.html they have some interesting theories on the origins of arnis

"1.) Eskrima / arnis / estokada did not pre-date the arrival of the Spaniards as earlier claimed by Filipino American FMA practitioners but was actually developed during the Spanish colonization of the archipelago. It was a hybrid martial art combining Spanish Renaissance rapier fencing with a plebeian form of stick fighting by the native Filipinos and was developed primarily in the Christianized coastal villages of the Visayan islands of Cebu, Bohol, Panay, Leyte Negros, and coastal provinces of Luzon namely, Zambales, Pampanga, Ilocos and Batangas that were vulnerable to sea-borne Moro attacks."

Pete

[Cruentus]

I also don't think there is a huge link from Balintawak to Modern Arnis.

Pete

Just to address this point, the link is definatily there. I train in both systems so I can see the connection; it would be one I would have to demo for people though rather then adequetly explain it.

By training Balintawak, I came to better understand where Professor got a lot of his stick work from. Prof. did not move like Anciong, though. This is not a slam, as Prof. was a respected and skilled fighter in his own right. Stylistically, Prof. Remy's Balintawak is more closely associated with Timor Maranga from the accounts of what I heard of how Timor fought, and from learning and playing with Remy. This is fitting, as Timor was one of Remy's instructors. A lot of this had to do with body type; both Mr. Maranga and Professor Remy being very strong compared to their peers. Both liked to overpower their opponents by grabbing to control the stick, and fighting in close with puno's as if to overwhelm their opponent.

But, if you had a chance to play with Professor you would see that when his skills were tested a little and he had to ramp it up a notch, he clearly resorted to his Balintawak training. His tapi-tapi was definatily influenced by that training as well.

Just my take on it...

Paul

[Cruentus]

There might have been fencing influence in the origins of escrima and arnis, but most likely it was hundreds of years ago. I don't think there is any recent and very direct influence on Balintawak, but it's probably there in Eskrima in general from way back


I think that there is sufficent evidence to support the idea that European methods had an influence on Filipino fighting methods far back. There just is no sufficient evidence to prove that there was a direct influence in the 1900's on Savaadres style, Doce Pares, or Balintawak. And, the idea that one of the Savaadre brothers spent time in prison and trained with a french fencer, and the rest is history.....well, it sounds like more blind princess stories to me. I can't buy that... not without sufficient data to support it.

Paul

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Bacon's style of was all random attacks. The groups and method of teaching were added later by Attorney Villasin and Teofilo Velez. Other people added the systematic approach to teaching after the fact. That's just my two cents.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Loki himself is a 4th generation student of Balintawak. His lineage is as follows:

Martin - Taboada - Velez - Villisan - Bacon

This may explain his ideas. I've been very fortunate to have GM Remy bring me to Manong Buot, A first generation student of Bacon. With all of the handing down of material, changes as well as outside influence are bound to happen.


:bow:

[loki09789]

1. You have an interesting theory, but you are pretty much grasping at straws and i think this next quote is where you go wrong.



2. Bacon's style of was all random attacks. The groups and method of teaching were added later by Attorney Villasin and Teofilo Velez. Other people added the systematic approach to teaching after the fact. That's just my two cents. I also don't think there is a huge link from Balintawak to Modern Arnis.

Pete

1. But, the point that you are neglecting to acknowledge is that I also referred to the lineage/association link between Bacon and the Saveedras. They went from the L.Fencing club to the Doce Pares school. Bacon as a student of the Saveedras. They were the ones with the Euro fencer in the mix. That influence would have been handed directly to Bacon. What others did to it may have made it look more like 'structured' fencing, true.

Also, if you remember my conversation with B.Taboada that I referred to, I was talking about systemic similarities in the ONE on ONE elements as well. As I said, when it really clicked for me was when B. Taboada was using me to demo the training of the basics. It went from the strikes, to the defense/counters to the 'random' feeds. The next level was to add lifting and clearings in a 'what do you do now' unstructured format. The structural elements are there, but are not ALL that is there. THere is just as much 'random' play as there is structured play.

THe majority of drilling that I experienced one on one with B.Taboada, and his assistant instructors was very much 'random.' But even then it really isn't 'random' so much as 'unexpected' by the student being fed. The instructor would decide what is or is not appropriate to throw at the student depending on the student's skill, level of understanding, experience, demeanor, character....so even the idea of 'random' isn't really random.

2. I made this point before but wouldn't a seeminlgy 'random' approach in a one on one instructional style be the result of having a euro fencer and an FMA Saveedra stuck in a prison cell exchanging material? Wouldn't it make sense that there would be no need to formalize, organize or repackage anything when all you had was the two of you and no immediate purpose like instructor certification. Just two trained fighters killing time?

The older, more ancient links to historical interaction is common knowledge. The specific influence of fencing on Doce Pares and then Balintawak is in the prison story and the information on Doce Pares/Saveedras as a root to Bacon's instruction. He would have been a teen/early 20's at this point. He spent a long time with them and then went on to start Balintawak.

[loki09789]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Loki himself is a 4th generation student of Balintawak. His lineage is as follows:

Martin - Taboada - Velez - Villisan - Bacon

This may explain his ideas. I've been very fortunate to have GM Remy bring me to Manong Buot, A first generation student of Bacon. With all of the handing down of material, changes as well as outside influence are bound to happen.


:bow:

Tim,

Check out the second paragraph in the bio on V. Bacon in the Reynaldo Galong book you cited earlier. That is were the information about the Saveedra/Bacon relationship came from as well. It would be very hard to NOT have any fencing/Doce Pares/Saveedra influence in Balintawak if these guys were this closely bonded as Teachers (Saveedras) and student (Bacon) as well as family friends.

If nothing else, that would seem pretty 'evidencial' to me.

[loki09789]

I think that there is sufficent evidence to support the idea that European methods had an influence on Filipino fighting methods far back. There just is no sufficient evidence to prove that there was a direct influence in the 1900's on Savaadres style, Doce Pares, or Balintawak. And, the idea that one of the Savaadre brothers spent time in prison and trained with a french fencer, and the rest is history.....well, it sounds like more blind princess stories to me. I can't buy that... not without sufficient data to support it.

Paul

Glad to see your back.

I agree that it isn't solid or verifiable evidence in any hard scientific fashion. But, then again, we aren't in a lab or court room. "Speculation" is still a form of "Theory." It is as good as some of the sources in the soft sciences have used to support theories about anything. Look at the 'incredible evidence' that scientists use to form speculations that led to the discovery of ancient cities like Alexandria or Biblical locations. Who knows what will pop up over time to prove/disprove my theory?

As I said anecdotal evidence still has a place in credibility - especially if you consider the 'credibility' of claims all over these forums. Has anyone tried to contact anyone in Doce Pares (Bart Hubbard or others) or emailed any Cebu Based folks to either disprove or substantiate the Fencer story or any other points I have made? I am waiting on some email replies myself, so if any responses come through, I'll post up what I can get.

As Tim has mentioned, past claims that proved to be inaccurate have been addressed and removed when they were found to be 'incredible.'

The information I have found is still there (from folks in Cebu BTW) and NOT removed, so even Cebuano peoples are accepting its credibility. THese are people that live and work in the very neighborhoods that Balintawak/Doce Pares were founded. I would think that the credibility check would be pretty easy, immediate and quick given how much honor and integrity play a part in Phillipino culture and specifically in FMA's.

FMA martial arts is far less 'formal' about lineage proof or documentation. You made that point a while ago in one of your points on belt ranks in FMA and martial arts in general.

I have yet to see any more substantial information than Tim, PeteNerd, G22, or anyone else has posted here anywhere else on forum discussions. I would say that there are many examples of far less substantial claims out there as well.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Tim,

Check out the second paragraph in the bio on V. Bacon in the Reynaldo Galong book you cited earlier. That is were the information about the Saveedra/Bacon relationship came from as well. It would be very hard to NOT have any fencing/Doce Pares/Saveedra influence in Balintawak if these guys were this closely bonded as Teachers (Saveedras) and student (Bacon) as well as family friends.

It will have to wait until I get back from Sweden.

[G22]

In the long run what is there to be gained or lost if its discovered that fencing/boxing IS or ISNT an influence on Balintawak anyways?

[arnisador]

It always seems like a point of pride--did our art influence yours, or did your art influence ours?

[Datu Tim Hartman]

In the long run what is there to be gained or lost if its discovered that fencing/boxing IS or ISNT an influence on Balintawak anyways?

It's called history. Whether we like it or not it tells us about who we are.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

2. I made this point before but wouldn't a seeminlgy 'random' approach in a one on one instructional style be the result of having a euro fencer and an FMA Saveedra stuck in a prison cell exchanging material? Wouldn't it make sense that there would be no need to formalize, organize or repackage anything when all you had was the two of you and no immediate purpose like instructor certification. Just two trained fighters killing time?

Here is a silly question. Do you find it a bit odd that two prisoners would be practicing weapon fighting in jail? Maybe a couple of stolen moments, but how much training could they have time for?

[G22]

It's called history. Whether we like it or not it tells us about who we are.

Well its obvious that many people like to either change the historical facts or overlook them if it causes a cognitive dissonance.

I just dont see where it harms anyone to look into, speculate, heck even assume when it comes to stuff like this. Who is getting hurt by just throwing out "I see fencing influences in Balintawak"? Toss around stories, show links, compare techniques...throw it around and take a look at it. I would think most of the GM's would just say "Huh..thats interesting. Who knows? Could be...Now lets get back to swinging sticks." I dont see where anything really has to be "proven" here. If ya see it ya see it, if ya dont ya dont...BFD. Doesnt change the price of Tea in China...or the Philippines either for that matter.

[Rich Parsons]

Well its obvious that many people like to either change the historical facts or overlook them if it causes a cognitive dissonance.

I just dont see where it harms anyone to look into, speculate, heck even assume when it comes to stuff like this. Who is getting hurt by just throwing out "I see fencing influences in Balintawak"? Toss around stories, show links, compare techniques...throw it around and take a look at it. I would think most of the GM's would just say "Huh..thats interesting. Who knows? Could be...Now lets get back to swinging sticks." I dont see where anything really has to be "proven" here. If ya see it ya see it, if ya dont ya dont...BFD. Doesnt change the price of Tea in China...or the Philippines either for that matter.

G22,

Let me get this straight you are now advocating for the stretching of the truth, for someone to claim something that is not true?

Very curious

[G22]

The truth? Who is the arbiter of "truth" around here?

I said:

Who is getting hurt by just throwing out "I see fencing influences in Balintawak"? Toss around stories, show links, compare techniques...throw it around and take a look at it. I would think most of the GM's would just say "Huh..thats interesting. Who knows? Could be...Now lets get back to swinging sticks." I dont see where anything really has to be "proven" here.

What Im asking is "are topics open for discussion here?" All I have seen here is a proposition/opinion brought up and a bunch of people saying "I dont see it" or "PROVE IT!" I havent seen anybody show anything I can accept as "truth" yet. Just a lot of opinions....and people who apparently cant be open minded enough to just play with the idea and even if you dont believe there was a direct influence, at least enjoy discovering a connection to some universal connection to human movement.

I would fathom to say that Balintawak didnt spring from nothing. There are influences from somewhere in it. Loki seems to see some fencing/boxing in it, why is it verboten to discuss? I havent seen much comparison of technique or philosophy, just a lot of argument. Is it the topic or the presenter thats the problem?

[Cruentus]

The problem, Tom, is that the speculation here that Loki is presenting and that you are supporting defies the rules of basic problem solving and logic. If you claim that you believe something is true, then you have to present credable evidence to support your belief or you are being illogical. If you present an idea, the burden of proof is on you, not others to prove a negative or to prove the contrary. Saying things like "speculation is a form of theory," or "because something hasn't been removed from a website, then an entire race of people (Cebuano's) must believe it is true..." (and so on and so on) are nonsensical statements.

So in and of itself, dealing with stupidity can be fustrating to many of us. The sad part is that behaviors are seldom isolated - so I hope no one is actually relying on you guys to obtain lifesaving information or training, lest the appoach be as well thought out as in this thread.

Then there is that minor issue that verifiable history happends to be vitally important to a traditional martial art, which Balintawak is. To some of us, it is fustrating that someone would nonsensically try to alter that history that is at the core of our traditional system. It is ignorant at best and dishonest at worst. And to stand by the speculation regardless of all credible arguements why you shouldn't is pure thickheadedness. And yes, dealing with lying or ignorance coupled with thickheadedness can be fustrating for some of us.

But, this is all just off the top of my head as to why this thread might matter, or might be fustrating to some...

Paul

[arnisador]

This thread is now closed.

-Arnisador
-FMATalk Admin