Modern Arnis Organizations, Whats the Difference?

[The Game]

I see a number of different orgs now, 2 IMAF's, WMAA, WMAC, MARPPIO, AMAA, etc. Whats the differences between them really? I'm not asking who's "pure", or "the best". That's really a matter of opinion, and one I'd rather form on my own. What I'm looking for is, what are the differences between the groups? Does one focus more on stick over blade, or open hand over stick, etc.

[The Game]

Oh, please no politics. Seen enough of that in the past. Thanks!

[Bob Hubbard]

It depends on a number of factors.
Some seek to preserve the last version of the art that they saw, some have made changes to it seeking to take it forward, etc.

[arnisador]

Does one focus more on stick over blade, or open hand over stick, etc.

I don't think there are big differences in that regard. There are minor differences in the curricula, plus disagreements about who should lead and who should follow.

A few differences from my experience (bear in mind the similarities are much greater): The IMAF-Schea group emphasizes tapi-tapi. The IMAF-Delaney group has more groundwork. The WMAA has a greater Balintawak influence. The MARPPIO and IMAFP groups have a more classical approach, including more (explicit) bladework. The DAV blends Kombatan influences in. The MA-80 branch is a karateka's take on the art. I don't know much about the WMAC and AMAA but I believe they merge in more non-FMA arts.

[Carol]

At their core, Martial Arts organizations legislate matters pertaining to rank...what material a (say) blue belt or a first black should know...what are the schools where one's rank is transferrable...at what rank does one get to call themselves a Grandmaster.

Modern Arnis has many orgs it does due to the system's belt ranks. The FMA styles that don't have a large organizational presence are typically styles that don't issue belt ranks.

[arnisador]

Yes, I think that's true--it's the belt system that means one must have a specific curriculum, and that's where disagreements come in.

[Rich Parsons]

At their core, Martial Arts organizations legislate matters pertaining to rank...what material a (say) blue belt or a first black should know...what are the schools where one's rank is transferrable...at what rank does one get to call themselves a Grandmaster.

Modern Arnis has many orgs it does due to the system's belt ranks. The FMA styles that don't have a large organizational presence are typically styles that don't issue belt ranks.


If the rank cert was signed by GM Remy A Presas, I would honor it. There is one exception of one person, and their organization, but that is personal between him and I. The students of another organization, could train with me, no problem, and if they were looking for rank (* Rare as I (we) am (are) an independant *) I would work with them until they had our curriculum, and I would expect that most of the others would be the same. Although I obviously cannot speak for them.

[Datu Dieter]

I don't think there are big differences in that regard. There are minor differences in the curricula, plus disagreements about who should lead and who should follow.

A few differences from my experience (bear in mind the similarities are much greater): The IMAF-Schea group emphasizes tapi-tapi. The IMAF-Delaney group has more groundwork. The WMAA has a greater Balintawak influence. The MARPPIO and IMAFP groups have a more classical approach, including more (explicit) bladework. The DAV blends Kombatan influences in. The MA-80 branch is a karateka's take on the art. I don't know much about the WMAC and AMAA but I believe they merge in more non-FMA arts.

H Arnisador,

good effort to name the essence of the different groups in one sentence.
Please allow me to elaborate a little on the Modern Arnis of the DAV:
W do not combine Modern Arnis and Kombatan, because Kombatan was founded 6 years after we left Ernesto.
What we combine in the DAV is the "old" Modern Arnis of Remy of the 70s (which is what Erensto taught at that time) with the "new" Modern Arnis of Remy of the 90s. There is also a lot of Tapi-Tapi as well as classical Arnis with blade elements. A good deal of knife work as well, not so much groundwork, if you mean working on the ground and not bringing to the ground.

But this is no critizism in what you wrote only a little more detailed insight in what and how we teach our Modern Arnis program in the DAV.

Regards and merry christmas


Dieter Knüttel

[arnisador]

Thanks for adding that detail! I knew I was greatly over-simplifying, but I know that I can never remember when Kombatan was formalized.

[kruzada]

The MARPPIO and IMAFP groups have a more classical approach, including more (explicit) bladework.

The IMAFP Senior Masters have integrated techniques and weapon categories, into their curriculum, from different FMA styles that were not originally part of the Modern Arnis curriculum.

They also teach Dumog groundwork along with their Mano Mano, and they teach GM Remy's Tapi-Tapi.

-Rich Acosta

[monkey]

dumogaton or dumog is not new for you to intergrade into the art!
Remy cleary tells & shows some it in every video!
the locks-holds ect or wrestling is not new!
i beleave Inosanto was the 1st to coin dumog in 1980 & soon it spred & all wanted to do it!

[kruzada]

dumogaton or dumog is not new for you to intergrade into the art!
Remy cleary tells & shows some it in every video!
the locks-holds ect or wrestling is not new!
i beleave Inosanto was the 1st to coin dumog in 1980 & soon it spred & all wanted to do it!

Don't get rude with me. Calm down and conduct yourself like a gentleman. You hold high rank in MA if memory serves properly. Treat me with the same respect that you would like me and others in this forum to give to you.

If you didn't know, using exclamation points makes it seem like you are screaming your point. You don't see me screaming back at you, do you? That is because what I say might reflect IMAFP, and everyone in my system in either a good or bad light. Aren't you worried what people in this forum will think of you and your branch of MA?

Back to your point, I never claimed that Dumog was new, or that IMAFP was the only branch of Modern Arnis practicing Dumog.

I simply stated that IMAFP integrated Dumog "Groundwork" into their Modern Arnis curriculum. Everyone in the FMA world knows some stand up Dumog techniques, but to my knowledge, the other Modern Arnis orgs. do not emphasize Dumog "Groundwork" and the original purpose of the thread was to highlight what is different in the curriculum of the various MA organizations. I believe Jeff Delaney has integrated some BJJ ground grappling into his MA, but I don't believe he claims this to be based on GM Remy's Dumog.

Rich Acosta
Chief Instructor
Kuntaw Kali Kruzada

[eskrimador]

Happy new Year.

I think, all MA practitioners have common things, such as the 12 striking points, blocking approach, disarming with stick or unarmed, forms, sinawali system, etc. Here in RP MA practitioners have differences mainly due to differences in objectives such as preserving the 70s style of MA, the propagation of Tapi-Tapi, Sports Arnis, and some evolving subsystem of MA. But differences mainly of personal things and some politics are the most issue with regards to MA practitioners. But whether become as one entity or many tribes, these practitioners will keep and proudly hoist the banner of Modern Arnis.

[Companyman]

The AAA has a structured belt system the works on basic martial arts stances, techniques, etc, thru the first two belt levels Yellow/green... at blue they are introduced to the Bo or long staff, to learn how to let a weapon find its own path. At Red belt level they are introduced to the Baston and taught basic stick techniques, Strikes/blocks, locks and submissions, footwork, etc. then add espada & daga in the advanced levels.

In the mid 70's when the Professor first came to the USA, he was encouraging already proficient martial artists to incorporate the Modern Arnis techniques into their respective systems, and thereby "blend" the splendid arnis techniques with good basic martial arts foundations.

In our case, the "blend" became the American Arnis Association, and the resulting courses became the templates for DTACT and other law enforcement special tactics. My number one student, Dr. Vecchi, now is an instructor at the FBI academy in Quanico, VA.

Each student took away different goals and each "blended" their instruction with the Professor into their own basic systems. As one earlier put it, it was the "old way" that the Professor first taught when in the mid 70's and was freshly in the US, in Fresno, CA.

[eskrimador]

That is inherent to the nature and attitude of MA. Blending to keep on being MODERN. If we examine the life of Prof. Remy, he blends in the turbulent changes in Martial Arts from 70's up to his late years. So we can expect more subsystem to develop from those existing organizations of Modern Arnis.

[Companyman]

I hope that is the case. Being trapped inside a fixed, inflexable system that doesn't allow for expansion and freedom to create, would be counter to the Professor's original premise.
A short story...
I had the pleasure of working with the Professor for two years when he was in Fresno, and put on his first classes in the US at Jerry Greathouse's House of Gung Fu. Tim Berg was working with Sifu Greathouse, and Bruce Juchnic was the professor's teaching assistant. After moving back to Iowa, ten years later, around 1986, we got the professor to put on a Seminar in Jefferson, Iowa. I was so pleased that I would be able to show him how I had progressed, and all I had learned in adapting what I had learned to our system. What I hadn't counted on, (silly me) was that while I was changing, adapting and learning... the Professor was doing the same thing. He had new and unique techniques that he had developed and practiced. The result was that again, I was still the student and still learning. I owe the professor my career, and many law enforcement officers owe their lives and well-being to what the Professor brought to us.

Larry Sloan
Companyman

[408kali]

Hi all!

Hi eskrimador, just wanted to touch on what you mentioned regarding the 12 strikes, and

my experience which others might like to share their experience also.

I started my FMA's with 12-strike modified Inayan Serrada method.

After that I'm a beginning student of the Garimot system which comprises (besides Buno

and Hilot) Arnis De Mano. From what I understand, Arnis De Mano as taught in the

Garimot system is made up of components of several systems combined, but so far I am

learning Largo. My Guro, Andrew Ma has informed me that in the system are methods for

all ranges: Largo, Medio, and Corto range. What I am learning is a 5-strike method of what

strikes me as a classical, very traditional Largo form of Arnis. What I have been shown

outside of the Garimot system with regards to Largo Mano was similar, but most definitely

condensed and stripped of its classical movement. I have found it challenging to

transition from Serrada 12-strike to Largo 5-strike classical, but I'm working on methods of

dealing with the challenge. Another thing that comes to mind is the DeCuerdas system

which has like 40 or more strikes! So just to share my perspective, I also thought that

most systems comprised of 5 or 12 strikes but specifically within the Garimot system

there are many more strikes taught as the student advances.

To note I am also a student of Eskrima Serrada under IESA which also has 12 basic

strikes, but to my understanding there are more which are also taught as the student

advances. BUT I consider myself a beginning student with a hunger to learn more about

FMA's and so this, along with what I've been taught, is the basis of my understanding.

I myself have alot to learn, and am enjoying the experience!

Peace, ~John.

[jus_dann]

garimot? is that with Guro Abon"garimot" Baet?

if so, great man, awsome instructor, and a fine system in my book!

dan

[jus_dann]

anyone know anything about the IPMAF or the IMAFP orgs?

just curious and somewhat trying to stay on topic

dan

[arnisador]

anyone know anything about the IPMAF or the IMAFP orgs?


There are threads in the Modern Arnis area, including this one (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=1534) and this one (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=1434) and this one (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=671)!

[tim_stl]

So just to share my perspective, I also thought that most systems comprised of 5 or 12 strikes but specifically within the Garimot system there are many more strikes taught as the student advances.

hey, john, nice to see you around.

to clarify for those interested, there are three core systems in garimot arnis, you being with cinco tero (5 angles), move to siete colores (7 angles), then to doce pares (12 angles). each is a new set of angles and strategies (so, the siete colores is not just like cinco teros with 2 more strikes).



tim

[hiddensnakehands]

the history of arnis/kali in the philippines is actually lost in time since there was no real written history per say. however, the different systems/orgs of the art itself most likely evolved from different fighting styles of the different people who practiced the arts.

please remember, the philippines is composed of so many islands and peoples that the art itself evolved into the different styles that focused on certain techniques that they believed to be either most effective, or most useful.

for ex: balintawak would emphasize a hell of a lot on defense and counters, others would focus heavily on tapi-tapi, then there are also those who would focus on the takedowns, locks, etc.

the more modern orgs would include variations taken from other arts entirely. (correct me if i'm wrong) i believe the inosanto academy mixes a lot of gung fu, wing chun, muai thai, and savate in their system. the other newly founded orgs are most likely to do the same.

beats me which has the best system. i don't think there's one any single system that could claim that title (so don't beat yourself up thinking about it). i think it's just a matter of picking one that works for you and just keep on going till you get close enough to perfection. (i said close enough. no one can really get to perfection)

[Maestro Kyle Abella]

Greetings!

I have been in the world of Arnis for about 20 years or more......as a hopeful artist, athlete, warrior, propagator and a teacher but not one among all organizations has the capabilities of really promoting the art like Japanese, Chinese, and Thailanders who made their own arts as the national art or sport in the country. This is ofcourse we Filipinos came from different origins and does it has been proven through the years that Filipinos has their own self agendas and goals. Each Islands has its own culture so as Arnis wherever a certain system originated or practiced.

My advise, find one art to another and try to see if it fits you with your own life-style and belief against that certain art/system.

I support all organizations trying to unite eskrimadors and propagate arnis all over the world yet I don't expect that much. I would say that if not all, some organizations are polluted. What I meant by it, is that there are some individuals join Arnis for selfish reasons.

Fact is, Filipinos are unique individuals with different principles and perceptions in the art that it is also considered as our own curse but mysteriously also a great advantage to each one of us as a tool for check and balance.

I would give my humble appreciation to those who trully are promoting arnis in anyway by heart, and condemn those who took advantage and gave a bad name to our art.

Mabuhay. Always remember, the system of the art is just a guide and familiarity of what yet to come and it is you who can truly understand the art and its benefits by constantly practising and realizing it through rigid training and shaping of ones-self understanding.

Maestro Kyle Abella
Chief Instructor
AbeBac Eskrima Clan

[arnisador]

My advise, find one art to another and try to see if it fits you with your own life-style and belief against that certain art/system.

I think it's important to try more than one art and find that fits your lifestyle--your body movements, your philosophy, and, of course, your schedule and budget. Very few people stick with their very first art!