A question about Tim Hartman

[The Game]

I know Tim's on here, so hope he doesn't mind my asking this.

I've been slumming on some other boards for a while. I noticed something interesting though.

Seems some people love him, some are in the middle, and a few people seem to really really hate him. I mean, the type of hate that really eats at ones soul. I even found a site where a few guys write songs and poems about him, and almost every post is a grade school level comment bordering on obsession and I'm not talking the perfume here. Real mental illness type stuff, like, guys in white coats and "they're coming to take me away haha" level crazy.

Hartmans wikipedia page had a defacement war on it a while ago, same guys and he's been lambasted over and over again, on the mtc, here, bullshido, and a few other places.

I really don't understand it.

So, I have to ask, what's he done to deserve this?

I've watched some clips of him on Youtube and over on MartialTalk. He isn't superman, but he doesn't move bad. I mean, he's not swinging his stick like an orchestra conductor, or waving it around like Merlin the magician like many FMA clips seem to do.

Speaking of clips, the couple of guys who seem to spend so much of their lives obsessing and going on and on and on about him, I couldn't find any video of them. Nothing. Couple of them are supposed to be something special too in the seminar world, but couldn't find any clips. Then again, I've also noticed that most of them have been banned from here or MartialTalk. Probably says something for their character.

So, why is it that you can't find any clips of these guys?

By the way, I saw a reference to "sock puppet" in a few threads. What that?

[Carol]

Was Datu Hartman the Professor's highest ranking American student at the time of his passing?

If so, would that not lead to jealosy and distorted expectations?

I've only spent a small amount of time on the mat with Datu Hartman, but after training with him and his senior students (Guro Jeff and Guro Sal) I was totally hooked.

After I took a private lesson from hDaty Hartman, he even helped me find a school by evaluating what was nearby. All this from a fellow that knows I live too far away from him to train under him.

Can't speak for eveyrone else, but to me he's been a helluva mentor and instructor, and I'm very much looking forward to my next opportunity to train with him again. The 8 hour commute each way will be worth it.

[Carol]

By the way, I saw a reference to "sock puppet" in a few threads. What that?

Has nothing to do with Modern Arnis or Martial Arts. Its an term grown borne of internet discussion boards to mean one person that assumes more than one posting identity. It's generally not good netiquette.

[Apollo]

Tim does things, he gets noticed, he's successful.
Envious nobodies prefer to try and tear down people like that, rather than to build themselves up by doing great works.
Such is the way of the world.

Just remember, nobody has ever built a monument to a critic.

[Bob Hubbard]

crossposted (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43324)from MT.

Someone once told me that Tim was like a Black Widow spider, he sucks you dry then discards your used up carcass. If I had a few more clients using me up like Tim, I'd have a car with a long funny name in my driveway. :) He's put me in contact with more people than I can keep track of, and been a solid supporter and friend for years, even when we haven't seen eye to eye at times. We wouldn't have MT, KenpoTalk, FMATalk or the WNYMA site without him. Wouldn't have had the M&G's, and I wouldn't have met so many great people over the years. So, yeah, I think he gets a bum rap from a few folks.

Tim's out there, doing things. Makes one a target for those who don't. Like Frank said, alot of emotions ran hot right after Remy's passing. Today, most folks are moving forward and continuing to promote Remy's dream and art and taking it forward, each in their own way. Guys like Tim, Kelly Worden, and other "big names" will always have their share of detractors. It's part of the game, y'know? The couple of folks who are stuck in the past? Well, like was said, you don't see videos of them, articles on them, many if any seminars by them, etc. So, take the criticisms with a few grains of salt. Tim's persistent, aggressive, and out there doing things. That rubs some folks the wrong way. It happens. I've chosen to ignore the disgruntled negative types, and train with positive good people. Tim's one of them. Makes for a more fun time, y'know?

The nobody critic is a common type on forums. I just ignore them as their command of the facts is usually lacking at best.

As to "Sock Puppets", it's a Wikipedia/Usenet term:

A sockpuppet (sometimes known also as a mule, glove puppet, alternate account, or joke account) is an additional account of an existing member of an Internet community to invent a separate user. This may be used for fictional support of separate people in a vote or argument by falsely using the account as a separate user, or for acting without consequence to one's "main" account. It is often considered dishonest by online communities, and such pretending individuals are often labeled as trolls.

[arnisador]

I'm biased, but to my mind, jealousy about covers it. People who haven't been able to do what he's done have tried to pull him down when they've failed at pulling themselves up.

[Bob Hubbard]

Yup. Bout it.

[Ron B]

The Game

the only way you will really know about Tim Hartman is to train with him.he has a summer camp which is advertised and meet and greets as well.dont listen to what others say about him meet the guy yourself and draw your own conclusions.

[Jack Latorre]

In regards to Tim Hartman...

In my interactions with Tim, he has been nothing but cordial, light-hearted and fair.

The Filipino martial heritage is highly politically charged and it is fair to say that Tim handles himself pretty diplomatically for the environment. I am not so sure I could do the same.

I have in fact noticed some with an axe to grind with Tim. While unfortunate, it is their perogative. It then falls to each individual to make their own sound judgement. All things with a grain of salt...

Remember that martial arts in this day and age are really not designed to duel other law-abiding citizens, martial artists or not. They are designed to protect you and your loved ones. Political attacks and petty disputes over rank are for the school yard.

Regards,

Jack A. Latorre

[The Game]

I figure I'll run into him eventually and see for myself. I've had a few people mention his name and I enjoyed the videos over on the MTC and did some reading up so, had to ask.

The couple of people who have said the most seem to do little else. No videos, no interviews, few if any photos. They don't seem to own schools or teach out of one. Really looks like childish sour grapes to me. The comments really are the maturity level of grade school yards. Seems to be the same 4 guys too, everywhere I go though they use alot of different handles. Sad when one realizes that many of these "children" are over 40. I really haven't found anyone important who's dissing him, so, it's a big grain of salt eh? lol.

[Apollo]

Tim's got his detractors like anyone else in the public eye doing things. Look at a few simple facts on the man.
- Full time FMA school owner.
- Large successful school, one of the top 10 largest in the WNY area.
- Does 20+ seminars/events per year
- Teaches all over the US, Canada and in Europe.
- Runs one of the main Modern Arnis organizations in the world, 41 member schools according to the organization site.

So, who are these detractors again?

[Enoch]

I had the honor of attending a seminar With Datu Hartman & Guro Parsons a few years ago in Warren, MI. It was a benefit for a young girl named Marissa Marks. Both Datu & Mr. Parsons taught an excellent seminar for FREE, giving all the proceeds to her family. That to me, says alot about their character. I have nothing but the utmost respect for both of them...
If you ever have the chance to train with Datu, I highly recommend it.
Just wanted to share.

Peace

[Rich Parsons]

I had the honor of attending a seminar With Datu Hartman & Guro Parsons a few years ago in Warren, MI. It was a benefit for a young girl named Marissa Marks. Both Datu & Mr. Parsons taught an excellent seminar for FREE, giving all the proceeds to her family. That to me, says alot about their character. I have nothing but the utmost respect for both of them...
If you ever have the chance to train with Datu, I highly recommend it.
Just wanted to share.

Peace

Enoch,

Thank you for your kind words. I just wish more could have been done in the long run.

Peace

[MSTCND]

Tim does things, he gets noticed, he's successful.
Envious nobodies prefer to try and tear down people like that, rather than to build themselves up by doing great works.
Such is the way of the world.

Just remember, nobody has ever built a monument to a critic.

That about hits the nail smack dab on the head...

When you're "on point"... your more likely to take a hit or two (or 20)... than if you're back in the rank and file...

It's been my pleasure to train and break bread with Mr. Hartman on two occassions in the past three years or so... and I've ALWAYS enjoyed both...

Your Brother in the arts,

Andrew

P.S. Hey, Datu! "Reservations for Hartman... party of five???" :biggrinbo

[Brock]

Let me put it this way:

Tim Hartman is a worthless piece of crap and a horrible person and his arnis sucks and he's got a bad haircut, and he always gets the cart with th squeakywheel when he goes to the supermarket to annoy the heck out of me as walks down the asile, and he smokes pot, and eats stale Cheetos, and wait I'll think of more...

Look at all the crap I can say without even knowing the man, and it's real easy 'cause I have a computer and a right to free speach and whatever else I'd want to hide behind if I really meant any of that stuff I said above. Then lets take this a little further and say I seriously posted something like that and Mr. Hartman responded to it, and then I could say something childish like "MAKE ME!!" and he'd say something to that and then I go on with a "Triple-dog-MAKE ME!!" and then get banned and then badmouth him and this group elsewhere all in a pathetic effort to draw attention to myself. I'm all for defending an art or artist that I care about, but to cut someone or something down because you precieve them to be better that you, or you think that they think they're better than you is childish, and it annoys the heck out of me.

[The Game]

Dis iz why dey fear heem (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=1338)! (Say it like Ah-Nuld!) ROFL!

Sounds like sour grapes from local nobodies who can't "hang" with the big boys on their own merits. The whole "Hey, I suck, so who here is a success? Hey, he is! I bet my lame ass would look so much cooler if I talk smack about him. It's alot easier than actually being good myself. I'm a L33t A4n1z Z7ud! W00t!". Whadevauh!

Ok, back to training while the losers go back to camp and sing songs, dream schemes and soak in their suckytude. BooYah!

[Carol]

Tim Hartman doesn't have a lock on success with Modern Arnis.

There are other professors that have also had successes in their own right and contribute to Modern Arnis in the FMAs in their own way. That the other teachers are NOT Datu Hartman or WMAA doesn't mean they suck.

Martial Arts instructors are not all things to all people. Each instructor has different things to contribute, different talents, and different perceived benefits in the eyes of students. Each student has the right to adjust their path as they see fit.

[arnisador]

There's lots of great Modern Arnis out there. The IMAF-Schea group, the DAV, Dan Anderson, MARPPIO, the IMAFP, and others...I wish I had time to visit with them all! I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. It's just that one particular person was asked about here.

[Carol]

All good. :)

[Brock]

Righty-o! You can replace Mr. Hartman's name with any other successful instructor, Modern Arnis or otherwise, and somewhere along the line, someone has taken a shot at them to draw attention to themselves. (Heck even I've been targeted this way, and I'm a "nobody".) I was just pointing out #1 how childish it is, and #2 that's the biggest reason there's a lot of trash-talking and such aimed at Mr. Hartman.

[Cruentus]

Righty-o! You can replace Mr. Hartman's name with any other successful instructor, Modern Arnis or otherwise, and somewhere along the line, someone has taken a shot at them to draw attention to themselves. (Heck even I've been targeted this way, and I'm a "nobody".) I was just pointing out #1 how childish it is, and #2 that's the biggest reason there's a lot of trash-talking and such aimed at Mr. Hartman.

Well, the unfortunate fact is that Tim tends to draw even more criticism then a lot of people due to his visability. He is a very visable guy for a Filipino Martial Artist. Not many people have his seminar schedule or a school where FMA (Modern Arnis) is taught as the foundation. The more in the spot light you are, the more people talk about you. I guess that's why mags like enquirer and US weekly stay in business! ;)

[lhommedieu]

FWIW:

Tim called me last year just to introduce himself and ended up shooting the breeze with me for over an hour. I found him affable and cordial. When I asked him why Modern Arnis seemed so political compared to other martial arts he admitted to some past errors in judgement but also made the point that a lot of things happened a long, long time ago. He was also frank about his opinion of some people but never engaged in any personal attacks or insulted anyone that he talked about.

Aside from an email or two a couple of years ago and this conversation, this is the only contact that I've had with Tim. I'd certainly sit down to eat and drink with him, given the opportunity, based upon my limited contact with him. Maybe there are some others, somewhere, that should put their differences behind them and do the same.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[SAL]

Since I am part of the WMAA and a member of its advisory board I rarely speak out on political issues because what I say appears to be just a company man blindly supporting his organization. This is not the way it is in the WMAA. Am I loyal to the WMAA and Tim Hartman? Yes. Is Tim my friend? Yes. The reason for this is because he has earned it.
Tim has helped more people in the martial arts than anyone I know, with most of it out of the public eye. He has given many their shot in the spotlight as a headline instructor and has made his school available to others for seminars and meetings and most of the time at no cost. This also includes those who speak out against him. Most of these people are a group of wana-be's in the Buffalo area that all feel have been dissed by Datu Hartman in some way or another and make childish statements on the web while crying on each others shoulders about how they've been wronged. Instead of using Tim's notarity to to draw more attention to their own group and make the Modern Arnis community stronger, they just try and knock him down.
We are out there trying to do our part for Modern Arnis, and in a positive way.
So to all those who have a problem with the WMAA, Datu Hartman or any of us, you know where we are. Come see us, and bring a stick.

Sal