Empty hands

[MTH]

balintawak empty hand looks like a kind of wing chun chi-sao, but i think its quite different.
what are the main differences?

[Rich Parsons]

balintawak empty hand looks like a kind of wing chun chi-sao, but i think its quite different.
what are the main differences?


Are both sentences yours? or did you copy it from someone else trying to ask a follow up question?

Thanks

[arnisador]

I've heard both that Balintawak does and does not have an empty-hands curriculum.

[samson818]

I think it depends on what group you train with.
Some emphasize EH, some dont train it at all.

I know some of the Balintawak groups in PI incorporated Tat Kun Tao, especially those affiliated with Joe Go.

Balintawak stick training (as well as most other FMA's) can easily be translated into EH training.
Check out youtube and search for Bobby Tabimina's or Nick Elizar's EH palakaw clips.

Hope that answers you question.

[MTH]

Are both sentences yours? or did you copy it from someone else trying to ask a follow up question?

Thanks
no, they are not.

I asked because I trained wing chun for a long time and I lately saw one Balintawak-clip training empty hands. In my opinion it was quite similar to chi-sao. Perhaps only different strategies.
Therefore my question.

@samson
Thank you for your reply. I´ll check out for the clips.

Merry x-mas to all.

Bye

[Pike]

HI MTHhttp://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I also trained for a length of time in wing chun and see what you see
things all are very similar:http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

They are many martial arts drills that are very simliar in principal
but Balintawak adheres to power of structure at all times
(either for the destruction of opponent structure
or for power to deliver ones own) either with weapons or empty hands
most students of Balintawak at an early stage are introduced to empty hand side of the art and are very happy with the results http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Best Regards and all the best for the new yearhttp://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Pike

[samson818]

I dont think Wing Chun and Balintawak are that similar.
They may have similar hand movements, as many close quarter styles do, but their structure and frames are completely different.

[teovel'sBalintawak]

They are many martial arts drills that are very simliar in principal
but Balintawak adheres to power of structure at all times
(either for the destruction of opponent structure
or for power to deliver ones own) either with weapons or empty hands
most students of Balintawak at an early stage are introduced to empty hand side of the art and are very happy with the results http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Balintawak trademarks are speed,timing,sensitivity and accuracy first before using power. These are the words of wisdom I heard from the Velez brothers and I think even other Balintawak lineages have the same concept. A 5 feet 2 inches guy that weights about 110 pounds will have a hardtime knocking out a 6 feet 2 inches 250 pound dude with a single power shot unless he hit the vital parts.

[teovel'sBalintawak]

Balintawak trademarks are speed,timing,sensitivity and accuracy first before using power. These are the words of wisdom I heard from the Velez brothers and I think even other Balintawak lineages have the same concept. A 5 feet 2 inches guy that weights about 110 pounds will have a hardtime knocking out a 6 feet 2 inches 250 pound dude with a single power shot unless he hit the vital parts.

[Rich Parsons]

I've heard both that Balintawak does and does not have an empty-hands curriculum.


Some have it in the curriculum officialy while others state it comes from the principals of the stick so you already know it, just use it and or practice it.

[Rich Parsons]

no, they are not.

I asked because I trained wing chun for a long time and I lately saw one Balintawak-clip training empty hands. In my opinion it was quite similar to chi-sao. Perhaps only different strategies.
Therefore my question.

@samson
Thank you for your reply. I´ll check out for the clips.

Merry x-mas to all.

Bye

MTH,

I can see where one might see similarities. Balintawak teaches the use of both hands at the same time with the proper body mechanics. Wing Chun does something similiar as well.

I think Wing Chun even adds in the third motion sometimes with the leg, which would only be done in Balintawak (* from my experience *) if it was a natrual movement for balance and or body mechanics.

[Rich Parsons]

Balintawak trademarks are speed,timing,sensitivity and accuracy first before using power. These are the words of wisdom I heard from the Velez brothers and I think even other Balintawak lineages have the same concept. A 5 feet 2 inches guy that weights about 110 pounds will have a hardtime knocking out a 6 feet 2 inches 250 pound dude with a single power shot unless he hit the vital parts.


From Manong Ted Buot's teachings:
In no particular order as they are all required.

Proper Body Mechanics for the technique
Sensitivity
Timing

The power comes from being on time with the proper body bechanics. It is not strength.

Speed is not taught for us, it is how does one handle timing without going faster or balistic at the beginning / learning stages. Later one is able to use their timing at any speed, to meet their opponent. Not using faster speed, but better timing to beat the opponent.

I know subtle differences, but very similiar. :)

[MacJ_007]

This is what Tatay Anciong said about the Empty Hand. He said, "If you are superior in the sticks, then you are far more superior in bare hands." But there is catch to it. Tatay Anciong also said, "If you understand it." Meaning Empty Hand is part of Balintawak. Bare Hands is a higher form of Balintawak. Some approach in Balintawak can only be achieved if you trained with the stick. The stick is not the weapon, it is only a training tool to get the necessary reaction needed to be achieved by the body. The ultimate weapon is YOURSELF, your REFLEX, your REACTION.

[Pike]

The stick is not the weapon, it is only a training tool to get the necessary reaction needed to be achieved by the body. The ultimate weapon is YOURSELF, your REFLEX, your REACTION.

So few words they can say so much http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Absolutely spot on in my book http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

happy new year http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Pike

[samson818]

Mr. Parsons,

I really appreciate your approach (as well as Manog Ted's) on timing, but I do think speed is still very important.

I think speed and timing exist in a harmonious relationship.
If your timing is correct, but your body is not physically fast enough to react, then your said timing is useless.
Much like catching a baseball. You can time its descent, but if you cant move fast enough to the correct spot, then you cant catch it.

Power is also not a bad attribute to have either.
I know plenty of guys who lack timing and sensitivity, but have loads of raw power and speed.
They can take most trained guys out with or without a stick.
These factors should not be overlooked or undertrained especially when young.

That being said, timing and sensitivity are attributes that can be trained well past your prime.
The learning curve is just much greater.

[Rich Parsons]

Mr. Parsons,

I really appreciate your approach (as well as Manog Ted's) on timing, but I do think speed is still very important.

I think speed and timing exist in a harmonious relationship.
If your timing is correct, but your body is not physically fast enough to react, then your said timing is useless.
Much like catching a baseball. You can time its descent, but if you cant move fast enough to the correct spot, then you cant catch it.

Power is also not a bad attribute to have either.
I know plenty of guys who lack timing and sensitivity, but have loads of raw power and speed.
They can take most trained guys out with or without a stick.
These factors should not be overlooked or undertrained especially when young.

That being said, timing and sensitivity are attributes that can be trained well past your prime.
The learning curve is just much greater.

Samson818,

I understand your point. I think that some loose something if they only try to get faster, they may go balistic. They are too committed and are not able to abort on time if required. If one trains slowly and learns the timing then they can then move up in speed and work on speed. Maybe that is the way I should have explained.

[samson818]

I very much agree with your post kind sir.
Timing is crucial, as are many other elements for combat.
Hopefully I can meet you and Manong Ted someday.
My buddy Eugene speaks very highly of you, your group, and Manong Ted.

[northstorm]

At PKS we have incorporated one aspect of Balintawak into our weapon and empty hand training. When the opponent checks your hand or weapon, Baltiniwak grabs that checking hand and pulls the opponent off balance setting them up for an immediate attack. Just a small thing, but very effective.

Chaplain Tom

[arnisador]

Sounds a bit like WIng Chun style trapping!

[armas]

The way we have been trained in Tabimina Balintawak all attributes of Speed, power,Balance, Sensitivity and Control is put together in synch with all your training. As you train you learn that these traits or attributes will help you respond to the attack or feeding given to you. As your instructor provokes you to respond without thinking(Zero Mind). If one can synchronize his movements with his attacker then you can develop all the above traits in unity with your movements. It is something you feel when there is a good stimulus feeding the student. IT becomes holistic.

[Lostsoul060685]

I agree. my father told me that if for example you punch a guy and the guy sees your punch that same guy could actually prepare himself for the punch thus, his more likely to snap out of it quickly. But when that same person did not see your strike. Something unexpected would totaly knock him down. So between power and speed. I think what is really fundamental is speed.

Im really learning a lot in this forum.. Thanks guyz

[deke]

Balintawak has two forms of empty hands.

With knowledge just drop the stick and you have empty hands OR then there is Tat Kun Tao Kung Fu which was originally formulated by ‘Jose Millan’ which fuses Five ancestors boxing with the simplicity of Balintawak. Henry Jayme in Cebu knows the double and single person patterns but is also a great Balintawk instructor.

[teovel'sBalintawak]

Balintawak has two forms of empty hands.

With knowledge just drop the stick and you have empty hands OR then there is Tat Kun Tao Kung Fu which was originally formulated by ‘Jose Millan’ which fuses Five ancestors boxing with the simplicity of Balintawak. Henry Jayme in Cebu knows the double and single person patterns but is also a great Balintawk instructor.


No offense just a little correction. Jose " Joe Go " Millan's empty hand style is called Tat Kun Tou not Tat Kun Tao. The system was derived from his Kung Fu and Balintawak background.

[deke]

None taken

Five ancestors boxing is a form of Kung Fu.

Tat kun tao (- (kune) kun taw - kun tou) are all variations of the same thing. Loose translation thinking fist way. English - (Chinese) - Filipino translation is always open to interpretation

Do you know the patterns? I'm interested in how well known they are by Balintawak schools in Cebu (particulary those with a Teovel lineage)?

David

[teovel'sBalintawak]

None taken

Five ancestors boxing is a form of Kung Fu.

Tat kun tao (- (kune) kun taw - kun tou) are all variations of the same thing. Loose translation thinking fist way. English - (Chinese) - Filipino translation is always open to interpretation

Do you know the patterns? I'm interested in how well known they are by Balintawak schools in Cebu (particulary those with a Teovel lineage)?

David

David,

I have studied Tat Kun Tou in 1987 when I was only 13 years old but was not so active. I know some of the patterns from solo to pairing.

Jose " Joe Go " Millan was a direct student of Anciong Bacon and a very good Balintawak player in his own right. He did not teach Balintawak to the public
but instead introduce Tat Koun Tou his empty hand version of Balintawak.

In the early 70's Velez and Villasin together opened their own school to the public to promote the art of Balintawak with the blessings of Ancion Bacon the founder. 10 years later Velez and Villasin parted ways. Mr. Teofilo Velez and his followers created a new group then named it Teovel's Balintawak Arnis Group.

Eugene