Weapons,Pikiti tirsia influance In Lameco

[long range]

HI all,
please can anyone inform to me the weapons used in the Lameco system and the progression that one is taught from say single stick to bolo.Also,how much of a influence has the Pikiti Tirsia system had on the Lameco knife drills and application's.

Thanks.

[JohnJ]

This is merely a general comment. Lameco's stick work is primarily taken from the Caballero system or DeCampo Eskrima. You can see this from his single and double stick applications and the way he moves. Kali Ilustrisimo concepts are used to teach the bolo/sword method and I believe even panyo came from Maestro Tony's influence and teachings. The knife tapping comes from PTK. Not sure of the Abella influence.

[long range]

Thanks John,
Are there any Long stick applications in the Lameco system?Do they teach Kris,Barong,Balisong to there students?

[Roger Agbulos]

Hello Long Range!

Long stick application is to any weapon, be it Kris, Barong, Kampilan, Sundang, Pinuti, Bolo, etc....

For all the years I have been under PG Sulite, I don't think he made any distiction between blades in the techniques. The distiction was in the characteristic of the long stick when use as a weapon during our drills - impact base or blade base. Movement was precise and not to be confused from each other.

Edgar was considered an expert in Balisong. He even wrote a book about it. I think the primary reason why it never formally got into the LAMECO "curriculum" was that the possesion of a Balisong in California (as is in most states) is illegal. There was no real purpose for it anymore other than for exhibition purposes using dulled blades - that is if the PD won't get in your case because they are not in the mood (or vise versa?).

JohnJ is being modest... he had a lot of private training from PG Sulite himself. I agree with your comment kapatid.

[Rudy Franco]

Hello Long Range!

Long stick application is to any weapon, be it Kris, Barong, Kampilan, Sundang, Pinuti, Bolo, etc....

For all the years I have been under PG Sulite, I don't think he made any distiction between blades in the techniques. The distiction was in the characteristic of the long stick when use as a weapon during our drills - impact base or blade base. Movement was precise and not to be confused from each other.

Edgar was considered an expert in Balisong. He even wrote a book about it. I think the primary reason why it never formally got into the LAMECO "curriculum" was that the possesion of a Balisong in California (as is in most states) is illegal. There was no real purpose for it anymore other than for exhibition purposes using dulled blades - that is if the PD won't get in your case because they are not in the mood (or vise versa?).

JohnJ is being modest... he had a lot of private training from PG Sulite himself. I agree with your comment kapatid.

Great info...

Keep it coming.

Rudy

[JohnJ]

JohnJ is being modest... he had a lot of private training from PG Sulite himself.

Actually, I was not fortunate enough to receive any private training. My limited experience was subject to a few seminars and sharing techniques with members of SOG.

[long range]

Thanks guy's,
So i take it that all the weapons that Roger spoke about are used within Lameco.What other weaons are used? Where is the Espada Daga techniques taken from that are in the lemaco system? would anyone know what weapons are taught by the european Lameco instructors?

[JohnJ]

So i take it that all the weapons that Roger spoke about are used within Lameco.

I don't believe this is what Roger is saying. What he is stating is that the principles and methods in the Lameco system are applicable to various weapons. In terms of swords, there is no sword specific to Lameco. It is probably more an individual preference and their ability to use the art with that sword.


What other weaons are used?

I believe the Pana is also used.


Where is the Espada Daga techniques taken from that are in the lemaco system?

Kali Ilustrisimo is definitely an influence in the Espada y Daga methods though I am certain other systems played a role.


would anyone know what weapons are taught by the european Lameco instructors?

Again, do not get fixated on specific weapons. The curriculum like any other system probably has a standard category of training i.e. solo and doble baston, knife, pana, E-H

Chances are if the instructor qualified to teach the art then he would be no different than instructors here or elsewhere UNLESS, he is teaching with his own preference of weapons.

[Roger Agbulos]

Well said, kapatid JohnJ . Thanks!

Long Range,
The influence of PTK in LAMECO is definitely big. Tuhon Leo Gaje was one of PG Sulite's mentors.

[phurba]

Hello,

In considering the influences of other styles on Lameco, has anybody has any idea, or traced the development (practically, as in really knowing the techniques) of Lameco.

Example, what were PG Sulite's core techniques in Lameco, and how did he move before coming to USA. Maybe his old students in Philippines might be able to answer that. Did PG Sulite teach anywhere else before arriving in USA? They might also have an idea.

The reason why I asked is because somebody mentioned to me that PG Sulite's techniques and movements had changed considerably after he went to USA. Therefore, his final development may not be very much Cabalerro? Any thoughts?


Peace in the Buddha,
Lama Dorje

[Guro Dave Gould]

Phurba,

Hello there, I hope that all is well with you and that you are keeping challenged by your training. Now to address your queries, you wrote:

>>> what were PG Sulite's core techniques in Lameco? <<<

Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite drew heavily from De Campo uno-Dos-Tres Orihinal concerning garote (stick). He drew equally as much from Kali Illustrisimo concerning baraw (knife). Lameco Eskrima has always been a system of combative effect where ones abilities were always allowed to speak for combative effect, over solely learning numerous dead series of drills. He took combat itself as the model for his training regimen and he based his training environment off of that reality.

He did not have so much core techniques but rather combative movement. He invested alot of years in developing the perfect delivery system (sistema ng dalhin) whereas the combative situation dictated opportunity and his abilities determined how long he would allow the fight to continue. He taught us more to deal with the combative situation with people factoring into the combative equation, a system where technique was always second to combative movement in general and ones over all combative capability.

>>> How did he move before coming to USA? Maybe his old students in the Philippines might be able to answer that?<<<

I would love to hear from some of the earlier students when Lameco Eskrima was in its infancy in this regard as well. So I am only speaking from my experiences with him. I am fortunate enough to have many hours of video from the 1985 - 1986 era when Edgar was still in the philippines. Among it I have Alot of footage of Edgar sparring with "Topher" Ricketts and Jun Pueblos among others, and comparing that to me sparring with him numerous times during my 5 years of private training with him I have to say that his movement has always been consistent. If anything he simplified his approach and fine tuned his stealth always using instinct and intuition as his guide.

>>> Did PG Sulite teach anywhere else before arriving in USA?<<<

Yes, other than teaching in Manila right before his departure for the states he also taught in Australia. Along with other Bakbakan Instructors and proteges of "Tatang" Illustrisimo.

>>>The reason why I asked is because somebody mentioned to me that PG Sulite's techniques and movements had changed considerably after he went to USA. Therefore, his final development may not be very much Cabalerro?<<<

Actually the core of Lameco Eskrima always has been, is and always will be De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal. Manong Caballero was detrimental in the development of Lameco Eskrima and his combative knowledge and aggressive mindset paved the most basic fundamental foundation of Lameco Eskrima. Edgar always told me that De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal was his confidense system concerning stick fighting and he would always utilize it to stop any threats faced to his person. As well he felt the same about Kali Illustrisimo concerning bladed combat.

If there was any change noted it would only be due to Edgar revealing more of Manong Caballeros combat proven principles and concepts into mainstream Lameco Eskrima, not less. The guys who trained Lameco Eskrima in the philippines noticed a strong Illustrisimo influence in the development of the system whereas we in the United States noticed a strong influence of De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal, especially towards the end of PG Sulites time with us here before passing away.

In Lameco Eskrima we have a saying "less is more". The less distance traversed the less distance required in recovering centerline infractions. The more distance traversed the more distance required in recovering centerline once violated. Everything in Lameco Eskrima is based on this principle of lees becoming more; a basic technique is a sound principle effective in combat.

An advanced technique is that same basic technique but only reduced to simplicity, less risk equating to more gain. If you can move smaller and in the process still explode on impact you will have less distance to move in recovering centerline infractions and with it any vulnerabilities exposed to your opponent at the time the center line was violated. Lameco Eskrima is no more than the laws of physics working in unison with simple geometry holding in check the shortest route from the point of perception to the point of contact with simplicity and combative effect leading the way.

In the final analysis only abilities matter; the most important question that we can ask of combative truth is can we kill our opponent? or will our opponent kill us? For at this time nothing else will matter... When you train as if your life matters, you will fight as if it does as well. Ciao.

Guro Dave Gould
www.LamecoEskrima.org (http://www.LamecoEskrima.org)

[Guro Dave Gould]

Now to address the original line of questioning concerning this thread. The question was:

>>> please can anyone inform to me the weapons used in the Lameco system and the progression that one is taught from say single stick to bolo.Also,how much of a influence has the Pikiti Tirsia system had on the Lameco knife drills and application's. <<<

Our weapon and weapon combinations in Lameco Eskrima are as follows:

a)- garote b)- doble-garote c)- dos manos largo d)- baraw e)- doble baraw f)- batangas g)- itak h)- itak-at-baraw i)- buto-buto j)- sandatas ng pagkakataon (susi, bato, payong, panyo, boteyla, patalim).

Lameco Eskrima is a fighting system which can be translated and effectively used through any medium which can be placed in the human hand. The only difference found will be in the delivery of the technique, concept or principle emphasized solely by the nomenclature of the weapon used. For example with garote (stick) you would still use a number "1" strike but more distance would be required to be traversed so that enough momentum could be generated on impact as to be able to break the head of your opponent. Whereas the same number "1" strike delivered with an itak (sword) or baraw (knife) would require less distance traversed because being an edged weapon momentum can be substituted with the cutting edge of the blade resulting in the same effect.

An edged weapon does not require as much distance to be traversed in order to be effective because of its combative capability, whereas a stick does. Depending on each weapon or weapon combination utilized inherently dictates a different recovery measure, the more distance traversed the more distance required to recover centerline infractions. The less distance traversed the less distance required to recover centerline once violated. So with an edged weapon economy of motion can be used to govern cause and effect. Whereas more distance is nessitated and required concerning both delivery and recovery for an impact weapon if the same outcome is sought.

In Lameco Eskrima Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite always emphasized abilities over technical knowledge in and of itself. So much time was dedicated in the development of the delivery system or simply called combative movement by Edgar. If the delivery system is well enough developed you can take any technique, concept or principle and perform it with positive effect. But with out the ability to deliver the technique, concept or principle effectively these things are only as good as their effect, because if you can not deliver their deadly intent on impact when fleeting opportunity is presented they quickly become useless and simultaneously become a liability to self in revealing opportunity to your opponent once attempted as vulnerabilities readily exist if recovery measures (centerline) can not be achieved quickly.

Kali Pekiti-Tirsia did have an influence on the development of Lameco Eskrima but concerning blade combatives Kali Illustrisimo enhanced by Manong Caballeros aggressive mindset sets the combative standard. Punong Guro Sulite valued all of his Teachers and their influence in lameco is clearly evident of that but experience has always been allowed to establish and over rule technical effect and how, when and where any technique, concept or principle would be used in a realistic training environment.

An environment where we are held accountable for our actions or failure to act as our training partners are always charged with the task to capilalize on any weakness perceived in training in an effort to keep us alert to the unlimited counter capability of our opponent when we least expect it. So even as we attack we still remain aware of any opportunity left or exposed to our opponent as a direct result of that action at any time that we are found in range or just out side of hitting range.

In Lameco Eskrima it is not so much "who" you are or "what" you know as much as it is "how" you move which matters most. Allow your abilities to speak for you in your time of need and their will be little room for words. Because in combat either you will kill your opponent or he will kill you. How you train will determine which reality that you will realize and whether you will survive and live... or be left dead. You are your first and last line of defense and if you can not keep your opponent from kiling you no one else will. So train to prepare for that reality and train as if it matters, because one day it very well may.

Train well, ciao.

Guro Dave Gould
www.LamecoEskrima.org

[gagimilo]

Wow, great info!
I'd like to say that the fact that in Lameco abilities are emphasized over techniques is exactly what attracted me to this methodology in the first place. It just sits well with my view of how combat should be treated, i.e.e the training for combat - develop your attributes and then learn to adapt to the ever changing situation, thus solving the problams at hand as they come.

[Tim Waid]

Some facts for consideration:

The Balisong book that PG Sulite wrote is 95% Pekiti-Tirsia material. This includes the footwork, attacks, knife to knife, empty-hands to knife, and "Commando" techniques. The Balisong manipulation techniques being basic to intermediate and common to all.

Pekiti-Tirsia and Ilustrisimo knife systems are greatly different in both emphasis and training method.

It is certain that PG emphasized different material (Caballero, Ilustrisimo, Pekiti, etc) in the training of different instructors.

The origins are clear and respect always recognized. A more worthy discussion would be how PG Sulite synthesized Lameco into its own.

Tim Waid
Pekiti-Tirsia Kali
www.pt-go.com (http://www.pt-go.com)

[Guro Dave Gould]

Tim,

Hello there, I hope that all is well with you and that you are keeping challenged by your training. Thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread, I for one appreciate your input.

Pekiti-tirsia is one of the five major influences of Lameco Eskrima and Punong Guro Sulite did draw from Tuhon Gajes wealth of knowledge in its regard. The batangas knife material (balisong) as you mentioned was from Tuhon Gaje and Pekiti-tirsia. So in the batangas curriculum there is quite a bit of influence from Tuhon Gaje.

However, concerning the curriculum, more specifically with bladed weapons, Punong Guro Sulite drew heavily from Kali Illustrisimo. From "Tatang" he pieced together all of the major components which make an effective delivery system and basic foundation such as: ranging, non-telegraphic striking, recovery measures, perception and reaction, location and relocation principles, enganyos, counter to counter, manufacturing opportunity, hand evasions and the 4 primary attributes (Speed, timing, power, position).

I have trained with Tuhon Gaje since the 80`s and yes he has these things in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia as well, but from Edgars own words he said concerning Impact weapons De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal was his core system and with bladed weapons it was Kali Illustrisimo. All of the influences of Lameco Eskrima were important to Edgar and all were detrimental to its initial beginning.

For the record Edgar was very high up in the Kali Pekiti-Tirsia global organization before he left to form Lameco Eskrima. At one point he was second in the organization only to Tuhon Gaje himself and Edgar was his right hand man. As a matter of fact he was so close to Tuhon Gaje that when Edgar first started training under "Tatang" Illustrisimo the other senior students of that organization would refer to Edgar as "Little Gaje" as a nick-name because Edgar would spend so much time with him and he always spoke so well of Tuhon Gaje.

Coming from numerous years of training in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia under Tuhon Gaje myself, it was very easy for me to see what was from Tuhon Gaje and what was not in our Lameco Eskrima Curriculum. Edgar was very fond of Tuhon Gaje and often said that he was the most complete teacher under whom he had the priviledge to train. Tuhon Gaje is one of the rare Masters who can perform all three of the necessary functions to be an all around teacher: someone who can present their curriculum in a manner where his students can understand, someone who has mastered his craft and not only is very knowledgeable but knows it back to back, and some one who can fight and apply what he teaches in actual combat.

Some Instructors may only be good in technique and teaching but they can not fight. Some may be good teachers and know lots of techniques but they may not be able to present that material in a manner where the student fully understands the more combative principles and concepts of what was taught and perform them in a chaotic combative environment. Others may be good fighters but they can not teach you what works for them or more importantly why it works. Tuhon Gaje has the rare quality of being a Master in all three regards: He is a good Teacher, he draws from a spring well of combative knowledge and he his a very effective fighter.

I as well as all of my Lameco Eskrima bretheren have the highest respect for all of the Masters whose systems and knowledge were instrumental in the inception of our system. Lameco Eskrima is a system based on their collective knowledge and Edgar has always given them credit for that and acknowledgement for their detrimental influence.

Again thanks for the response Tim, I hope that you will stick around post on other topics in the Lameco section of this forum as well. Go well, ciao.

Guro Dave Gould
www.LamecoEskrima.org (http://www.LamecoEskrima.org)

[Gilla]

Wow,
Maybe we should have a battle of the Network Heirs,Chris Sayoc ,Nene Tortal and PG Edgar like americas top model . We could all vote on line. There could be a talent show - a bikini contest it would be Great.
Eddie

[Guro Dave Gould]

What are you implying Gilla?

[arnisador]

There's a lot of great information in this thread. I've been in the FMA long enough to not be surprised by the fact that some of it is contradictory!

[Guro Dave Gould]

Maybe this is not the forum for me??? I am here to share my personal experiences as a long time private student of Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite and Lameco Eskrima. Politics serve no purpose but to create friction where it does not belong. Good luck in your training guys.

For those who are genuinely interested in learning more about Lameco Eskrima please feel free to visit my website at: www.LamecoEskrima.org (http://www.LamecoEskrima.org) or you can visit my Lameco S.O.G. brothers at www.mandirigma.org (http://www.mandirigma.org)

I can guarantee that no politics or trolls will be tolerated on either of these sites, just good training advice for those interested in getting to know more about Lameco Eskrima. Go well guys, ciao.

Guro Dave Gould.

[arnisador]

Maybe this is not the forum for me???

Your experience is very much appreciated, and we hope you'll keep sharing it. Trolls won't be tolerated here; please PM the staff with any complaints. At this point, as someone not knowledgeable aout the art in question, I see only an attempt at humor and not a case of trolling.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[gagimilo]

I agree with arnisador, at least that's the way I understood the unfortunate "contest" post. Obviously the person who posted it has not developed too good of a sense for what is the right time and place for certain comments, but I do not think there was any malice.
It would be too bad to lose such a great and autoritative soure of infromation as Guro Gould certainly is, aspecially to some minor and unimportant attempts at being funny.
It is exactly the presence of people such as Guro Gould, Guro Agbulos, Mandala Waid...that gives the value and special "wight" forums such as this, since there is not better place to have information from such reliable and trustworthy sources.

Oh, and no, I'm not trying to suck up to anyone.:)

[Gilla]

I am sorry if i offend people ,i am not Trolling i was just trying to comment on how many #2 guy's or heirs to the system PTK there are out there. If i had a dime for each one I'd be rich.
Eddie (just call me Don Imus)

[Guro Dave Gould]

Actually guys the comment really hit me as being in very poor taste. Just so you guys know Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite died on April 10, 1997 so this marks the very day of the 10th year anniversary of his passing (April 10, 2007).

This is a very sad day for all of us in the Lameco Eskrima organization. So especially now any attempt to make jokes at his expense will get a harsh reaction from any of us who were closest to him in life and death. We just wrapped up a great tribute to him over the week-end filled with high emmotions concerning his life and his death. So if you wonder why I reacted the way that I did now you know.

Usually I have very thick skin concerning myself but I have never tolerated any disrespect to be shown toward his character and quite honestly I never will. I have two passions in life; Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite and Lameco Eskrima. Keep in mind guys that we in Lameco S.O.G. defended Punong Guro Sulites character and good name on numerous occasions by fiighting challenges against those that showed blatant disrespect in blemishing his good name in the past. We all will fight to keep his Image pure and his honor in good standing as it should be.

For the record Edgar never wanted or expected to be the heir to Pekiti-tirsia. It was never promised him by Tuhon Gaje nor did Edgar wish to be considered, he was more than happy with his position with Tuhon Gaje as his student, he revered first and foremost as his teacher and friend. Edgar felt the same toward Tuhon Gaje as I feel toward Edgar and on occasions Edgar did defend Tuhon Gajes name when people were making jokes at Gajes expense concerning his numerous dealing with business associates in the late 70`s and early 80`s.

I am sure that you are a great guy Eddie, maybe a little forward but your comment was in poor taste. I hope that you realize that and can understand my position on the matter. I feel as well that no malice was intended so we will leave it here as is. Go well guys, ciao.

Guro Dave Gould.

[arnisador]

I didn't realize it was the tenth anniversary of his passing. What a tribute to him that so many still feel so strongly about him.

[sneaky]

Hi Guro Dave et all,

I for one must say I have always found your dedication to Lameco and PG Sulite most admirable and enspiring, I am not a member of any of the above organisations but am an instructor in FFS , my instructor Ray Floro has always spoken fondly of PG Sulite and of his skill, Its nice to see someone upholding an ideal for only that and not politics.

All the best and respect to PG Sulites family and memory at this emotional time and all the best to you Guro Dave,

Jim Seckold,

Floro fighting systems

[RayFloro]

My thoughts, respect and best wishes to the LAMECO Group and PG Edgar's family through this difficult time.

Guro Dave, Let me echo Jim's comment and say that you are the BEST custodian for the preservation and propagation of PG Edgar's legacy.

Keep up the great work

Respectfully

Raymond Floro
Floro Fighting Systems

[truth_be_told]

mr. dave gould,

my present silence in this thread is my way of memorial to PG Edgar Sulite in the past days.

as they say, One can honor and thanked a cherished relative or friend or mentor with an everlasting gift of love – a memorial.
This gift lives forever, it is evident by your group yearly memorial tribute.

please note that i am not associated nor affiliated with your group but owed my grattitude to your founder and international group for my basic foundations.

silence is golden.

[gagimilo]

I'd like adding one more info, just as an illustration of Guro Gould's character. Namely, in his modesty he "forgot" to say that it was him who opened the instructional portion of the LAMECO All Stars event last weekend. In my book it spells honor, and I doubt it was undeserved...

All the best. I'm so glad we all found the way to overcome this misunserstanding.

[Roger Agbulos]

Hello all! Looks like we got the ball rolling here! This is great!
My Kapatid Dave, it was great seeing you and the other S.O.G. brothers.. it's been a good 10 years since we last got together. This was a very special event we did for PG Edgar Sulite, sad that there were those who were not able to make it for personal reasons.

Still, we had a great time honoring him and seeing other FMA brothers support it. What a treat!

Thank you Dave and my S.O.G. brothers. Glad to see that we are solid in keeping the LAMECO flame alive!

Roger Agbulos
LAMECO S.O.G.

[GrandTuhon Leo T Gaje Jr]

The true story of Lameco:

Edgar Sulite was from Ozamis City in Mindanao . I met Edgar through his brother and both of them were in some Karate style. When they knew that I was in the city, they came to me together with my wife's nephew who wanted to study PTK. So I trained them for couple of months timely in preparation for the first Kali Arnis Escrima in Cebu. I trained them along the shoreline of Ozamis in the middle of the hot day and after a while I let them jump into the sea water to cool their nerves. It was a crash program for them. Then I brought them to Cebu to fight in the tournament . They were so aggressive and since I was the referee, I didn't notice that they were my guys fighting against the Cebu escrima, because they were covered by the headgear and body armour, I disqualified both fighters for not following the rules but to my surprised inspite of short training they outpowered the cebu guys that they kept on beating them even I was blowing the whistle. Since the Gym was so crowded with people, I could hardly recognize each one who is fighting. But I was so proud to see that in short a time the PTK boys from Ozamis werre fighting like crazy dogs.

It was then that I was about to leave for the US that I told Edgar that while he is on development he has to continue in Ozamis there was that old man by the name of GM Caballero. When I visited him in his house he was so frail that he didn't even want to hold the stick. he was so sickly , But I told the old man to teach Edgar because Edgar will bring your his name to the US so that the system will not be lost. So the man turned to be a young and he told his wife to get the Baston and he demonstrated his 1-2 -3 de Campo in full power hitting the banana tree in front of his house. So Edgar had few lessons from GM Caballero and I knew later that he went to Manila and found Tatang Illustrisimo at the Luneta park. He spent time with Tatang Illustisimo and the fact that Edgar had trained with me and mentioning my name to Tatang Illustrisimo he was given attention and with the guys who were with him they had that progress which Edgar had found a Chinese financier for the Book Masters of Arnis. That was the time when I went back to the Philippines several time and Edgar told me the story . So I told him go ahead have that book and I will endorse that book . It also by this time that Edgar saw himself riped for the training and he asked me what name shall I call if I put up a system so I said Long Range-Medium Range and Close Range System in short LAMECO.I was the one that titled that system Lameco.

So those years that I visited the Philippines in the early 80's I always visited Edgar in his small Apartment in Pasay near the Manila Sanitarium and Hospital and with his three kids I have to help him and his wife . I have to bring Edgar to some places out in the tree area close to Luneta and one to one extended him the PTK knife and knife and stick and ranging techniques.The fact that he was with Tatang Illustrisimo with the style he mixed and form his Lameco. But there were several Masters that Edgar had put in the that Masters of Arnis which the book had made money for him to exist and when Edgar was here in the USA, I told Edgar ,please send some brithday cards or christmas cards to the people that is in the book and put some $ 10.00 for their consulation of they did to you. And he said arrogantly, they can take care of themselves. Well Edgar thinks that he was here in the States he didn't need those old men that helped him succeed. I didn't even remember that Edgar offered me a cap of coffee during the time he was here in the US and even when went back to the Philippines. He knew that was there and he knew where to contact me but he put more time to the Ilustrisimo guys showing them how great was Machado grabbing the punching bag wrestling with it and suddenly he felt dizzy and he was brought to the hospital at Quezon city where he was open in his head and his throat was open for the air to breath. I visited him and his wife was there but he cannot recognize people. I consulted the metaphysical powers and I was told that the oldmen was mad at Edgar for his ingratitude and that is the reason at early age he got knock once and that is the end. As I told every one the true art Kali is a sacred art if you missed with Kali you will be in big trouble.

[viejo]

The true story of Lameco:

Edgar Sulite was from Ozamis City in Mindanao . I met Edgar through his brother and both of them were in some Karate style. When they knew that I was in the city, they came to me together with my wife's nephew who wanted to study PTK. So I trained them for couple of months timely in preparation for the first Kali Arnis Escrima in Cebu. I trained them along the shoreline of Ozamis in the middle of the hot day and after a while I let them jump into the sea water to cool their nerves. It was a crash program for them. Then I brought them to Cebu to fight in the tournament . They were so aggressive and since I was the referee, I didn't notice that they were my guys fighting against the Cebu escrima, because they were covered by the headgear and body armour, I disqualified both fighters for not following the rules but to my surprised inspite of short training they outpowered the cebu guys that they kept on beating them even I was blowing the whistle. Since the Gym was so crowded with people, I could hardly recognize each one who is fighting. But I was so proud to see that in short a time the PTK boys from Ozamis werre fighting like crazy dogs.

It was then that I was about to leave for the US that I told Edgar that while he is on development he has to continue in Ozamis there was that old man by the name of GM Caballero. When I visited him in his house he was so frail that he didn't even want to hold the stick. he was so sickly , But I told the old man to teach Edgar because Edgar will bring your his name to the US so that the system will not be lost. So the man turned to be a young and he told his wife to get the Baston and he demonstrated his 1-2 -3 de Campo in full power hitting the banana tree in front of his house. So Edgar had few lessons from GM Caballero and I knew later that he went to Manila and found Tatang Illustrisimo at the Luneta park. He spent time with Tatang Illustisimo and the fact that Edgar had trained with me and mentioning my name to Tatang Illustrisimo he was given attention and with the guys who were with him they had that progress which Edgar had found a Chinese financier for the Book Masters of Arnis. That was the time when I went back to the Philippines several time and Edgar told me the story . So I told him go ahead have that book and I will endorse that book . It also by this time that Edgar saw himself riped for the training and he asked me what name shall I call if I put up a system so I said Long Range-Medium Range and Close Range System in short LAMECO.I was the one that titled that system Lameco.

So those years that I visited the Philippines in the early 80's I always visited Edgar in his small Apartment in Pasay near the Manila Sanitarium and Hospital and with his three kids I have to help him and his wife . I have to bring Edgar to some places out in the tree area close to Luneta and one to one extended him the PTK knife and knife and stick and ranging techniques.The fact that he was with Tatang Illustrisimo with the style he mixed and form his Lameco. But there were several Masters that Edgar had put in the that Masters of Arnis which the book had made money for him to exist and when Edgar was here in the USA, I told Edgar ,please send some brithday cards or christmas cards to the people that is in the book and put some $ 10.00 for their consulation of they did to you. And he said arrogantly, they can take care of themselves. Well Edgar thinks that he was here in the States he didn't need those old men that helped him succeed. I didn't even remember that Edgar offered me a cap of coffee during the time he was here in the US and even when went back to the Philippines.

MMM thats not so nice, but why u bring this here now? Whats the use to speak so from someone who cannot say anything in his defense? I enjoy much reading what u say but I really dont understand why????
There is a saying "Dirty clothes should be wash at home"""

He knew that was there and he knew where to contact me but he put more time to the Ilustrisimo guys showing them how great was Machado grabbing the punching bag wrestling with it and suddenly he felt dizzy and he was brought to the hospital at Quezon city where he was open in his head and his throat was open for the air to breath. I visited him and his wife was there but he cannot recognize people. I consulted the metaphysical powers and I was told that the oldmen was mad at Edgar for his ingratitude and that is the reason at early age he got knock once and that is the end. As I told every one the true art Kali is a sacred art if you missed with Kali you will be in big trouble.
......................
Why?

[Guro Dave Gould]

Tuhon Gaje,

Wow, I really don`t know how to respond to this. Edgar has always had nothing but nice things to say about you even when others around him were saying terrible things about you concerning some business dealings they had with you in the 80`s... Edgar stood up for you when no one else would.

So in your eyes Edgar Sulite is another P.Greg Alland? Billy Mcgrath? Nene Tortal? An ignorant boy from the hinterlands who never held a garote until he met you? I am really disappointed to read what you have written here Tuhon, I really am. You have made him sound as if he were nothing more than a poser whose only purpose on the planet was to serve his own selfish ambitions and secure money. That is not the Edgar Sulite that I knew and proudly serve to this day.

You were one of my first Instructors in the Indigenous Pilipino Warrior Arts and I have always held you in very high esteem Tuhon. I will always be loyal to Edgar Sulite and I will stand by his side even if one day I find myself standing alone.

Edgar told quite a different version of that story, his time with his father, his time with Manong Caballero, his time with you, his time with Manong Illustrisimo and his time with Manongs Cabahug and Abella. Are you saying that what he told all of his students worldwide are lies? I find that very difficult to believe Tuhon.

Best Wishes Tuhon I hope that you find what you are looking for, something apparently so valuable that it is worth blemishing one of your most loyal students and proteges image in the process.

Guro Dave Gould.

[sneaky]

A saying springs to mind here,

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt."

All the best,

Jim

[Guro Dave Gould]

Hi Guys,

I hope that all are well and that everyone is keeping challenged by their daily training.

I just wanted to follow up on Tuhon Leo Gajes post concerning Edgar Sulite. As well I wanted to clarify something which I wrote when I made the comparison as apparently seen through the eyes of Tuhon Gaje between Edgar Sulite, P. Greg Alland, Billy Mcgrath and Nene Tortal. What I wrote was not a slam or anything disrespectful towards these gentlemen in any way. I personally think highly of each one and I feel that each has been utilized when times were good, discharged when times were bad and victimized senselessly and ridiculed there after all because of sharing one common relationship in life... a single past association which doomed them all.

What I was alluding to when I wrote what I wrote was that at one time all of these individuals were extremely loyal to Tuhon Gaje and once they no longer served his purpose they were disowned, discredited and thrown to the lions left to eat or be eaten. Each trained, propagated and served Tuhon Gajes vision of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia for years and I do not think it fair for Edgar Sulite`s good name and reputation to be dragged through the mud and blemished by the filth of politics for ones own gain. This is all quite unecessary in my opinion.

If there is merit to these allegations there was plenty of time to make these accusations person to person when Edgar Sulite was still with us in life. 10 years after his death is not the time to come forth and attempt to discredit him for whatever personal gain which may be obtained as a direct course of this poor thought out action. In death he can not defend himself as his own voice has been silenced. And for it to come from some one who he thought the world of is just wrong...

To say that our Kali fore fathers conspired together in the after life and killed Edgar G. Sulite for his allegated actions and misdealings with his Instructors, too whom he was very loyal by the way is completely preposterous. The TRUTH of the matter is that his killer was an assassin of poverty too whom he was introduced while being forced to grow up in the hinterlands of the Philippines to a loving family with no money to combat a disease better known as High Blood Pressure. Edgar G. Sulite was diagnosed just months before his death with an enlarged heart caused by years of high blood pressure. His heart had simply grown to large for his chest cavity and at the time of diagnosis his condition was inoperable. He became "A" systematic for a stroke and that fateful day in the philippines that is exactly what occured. Because of the severe effects that were created by the stroke Edgar Sulite developed an aneurysm. It bursted and another aneurysm developed which is the one that killed him weeks later.

Edgar Sulite has always stated that Lameco Eskrima was not his alone and he has always given credit to all of his Instructors for the creation of Lameco Eskrima. I trained under Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite from 1992 - 1997 when he passed and all of those years I witnesses a very caring, compassionate and loyal man who spoke ill of no man and treated all BELOW him with the utmost RESPECT. You can say what you will of this great man but my personal experience with someone for years forms the basis for my respect for that individual and Edgar G. Sulite was honorable and upstanding and many would do well to establish and follow him as an example in life.

As one of my first Instructors Tuhon Gaje I respect you immensely but I can not accept these claims allegated against Edgar Sulite. I hope that this is not the beginning of an ongoing series of attacks to discredit him and blemiish his good reputation. He deserves greater than this and I know deep down in your soul that you have to believe this.

Guro Dave Gould.

[langgaw]

.........with all due respect Tuhon, I mean with all due respect, (reading at what you posted) looking as a an onlooker/outsider,THAT WAS NOT A NICE THING TO SAY. I know that your were probably just stating facts but that was uncalled for. That would deminish what respect others have built up towards you. I found it hard to believe you even said that. That would just mean that you are always talking about yourself, your views and what you know about anything else. You should put in some regard for others. I ahve seen most of your posts here and they are quite impressive and htey mostly are about you and PTK and the history behind it. For you to share it here is an honor but I suggest puttng in some finesse and refinements so it can be viewed more as factual,inspirational and informational rather than contriversial, political or otherwise very personal just to boost up your name. You are already an icon and in my opinion you shoul not bring your name down yourself from too much ego. As I said you are already THE ONE in PTK but there is still room for a little humbleness. There is more htan enough going around between you and the names mentioned by Guro Gould and In my opinion there is really no need to add anything else. I can only say that we are still ready for any more infromational posts from you. This is just one of those unfortunate mis-posts and uncalled for facts using the wrong choice of words/ statements. And about the metaphysical, it is like Bruce Lee being punished by the ancient chinese masters for spreading ths secrets of the CMA. Common, we are in teh new age and we know more than that. Ride on Tuhon.