Panantukan

[Doc]

Anyone want to talk about Panantukan? Its my favorite aspect of the FMA's. :-) I love the way that the FMA empty-hand methods are grafted so effectively onto a western boxing base.

Keith

[p.v.]

Some people will not agree with you,but I'm :),western boxing is one of my favourite for empty hand work in FMA.

[arnisador]

Even in Modern Arnis, which has adopted so much of Shotokan Karate, boxing-style techniques are important in our empty-hands work.

Where I study JKD we frequently use Panantukan/Pananjakman drills with (kick)boxing-style techniques. I like them!

[samson818]

Panantukan has some great stuff, especially from the Inosanto/Lacoste camp.

Has anyone been able to successfully use their destructions and gunting as entries in sparring/combat?
It has worked when I have used it against sparring partners, but the 1 or 2 times I have tried it real life, my opponents were so high on adrenalin they didnt even feel it.

Anyone have any interesting entries from panantukan?
Panantukan drills?
How do you combine panantukan, sikaran, and dumog/buno when sparring?

[DAMAG-INC]

I watched the Kali-Tudo dvds and they are awesome! It's basically empty-hand FMA and Maphilindo Silat training MMA style. If you wanna bring out the best in honing your panantukan skill specifically, don't be surprised to find yourself agreeing that this dvd set IS a worthy investment.

Daniel

[Doc]

I watched the Kali-Tudo dvds and they are awesome! It's basically empty-hand FMA and Maphilindo Silat training MMA style. If you wanna bring out the best in honing your panantukan skill specifically, don't be surprised to find yourself agreeing that this dvd set IS a worthy investment.

Daniel

I gotta agree with Daniel on this one! This DVD set from the Dog Brothers is excellent. They are coming out with another installment in the future that I expect to be very good as well. It is not really "classical" Panantukan that is on the first DVD set, but good stuff!

While we are on the topic of Panantukan videos, let me mention the ones that I have seen and what I thought.

1. I recently purchased the 2 DVD set from Rick Faye. These are very good as well. They are about 90 minutes apiece and just full of info. I also highly recommend Guro Faye's book on the subject. It is the only book I know of that covers Panantukan. It is put together as a training notebook and the DVDs follow along with it pretty well.

2. I have the video that Ted Lucaylucay did many years back for Unique Publications. It is a good overview of basic western boxing, but that's about it. It doesn't really go into the things that are unique to Panantukan. I was a bit disappointed with it.

3. I have the first video that Guro Lucaylucay's student Mark Stewart made. It is pretty decent, but not as good as Faye's IMHO. I believe he may have done some others after that first one. Anyone seen them?

4. I have Steve Grody's series "The Flow of Kali Empty Hands" that he did for Unique several years ago. Even though the word is not in the title, these are straight up Panantukan videos that emphasizes the FMA element more than the boxing element. These are also excellent. He really breaks things down and goes over them slowly so that you can get them down. The one complaint I had with Rick Faye's vids was that sometimes he goes so quickly that you have to keep rewinding over and over to figure out what he is doing.

5. I have the Panatukan DVD and the Dumog DVD on order from Guro Inosanto's most recent series of DVDs. I'm looking forward to seeing them.

6. I've seen the promotional shots for Ernie Lake's Panantukan videos and they look pretty good. I will likely get them eventually as well. From the promo shots, my impression is that Guro Lake is focusing on knife application from the Panantukan, but I could be wrong. Has anyone seen these. Guro Lake...are you reading? :-)

7. I note recently that Harley Elmore has some Panantukan DVDs as well. Anyone seen them?

Anyone else have any good videos to recommend?

Keith

[Doc]

I received Guro Inosanto's Panantukan DVD in the mail yesterday and have had a chance to watch it. In the DVD Guro Inosanto pretty clearly indicates that his Panantukan comes primarily from John Lacoste and Lucky Lucaylucay. The impression I have formed...and this is just my impression...is that what Lucaylucay taught had an emphasis on punching (western boxing), while what Lacoste taught had more of an emphasis on the elements more distinct to Panantukan...like the limb destructions, foot trapping, takedowns, etc. Now this is not to say that these elements didn't exist in the other's art....just talking here about "emphasis."

Keith

[Doc]

I thought I would throw another idea out for discussion to see if anyone had some input. :-) Clearly, even though Panantukan is referred to as "filipino boxing", there is kicking involved. I've seen this typically referred to as "Pananjakman." But there is also the art of "Sikaran", which is "filipino kicking methods." My impression is that there is a difference between Pananjakman and Sikaran. Pananjakman is essentially a subset of Panantukan. It is the kicking method that supports the hands and that works naturally from the same base biomechanic. So you have a "foot" version of the punching. In contrast, Sikaran is more developed in order to function as an entire art in its own right...much like Tae Kwon Do. Both of these have hand techniques as well, but the focus is on using the legs.

I look at it this way....when we say "filipino boxing" we are using "boxing" to mean empty-hand fighting in general. Much like in western boxing's early history when there were fewer rules. Back then throws and limited grappling was allowed even though it was referred to as "boxing." So we could even say that to some extent Dumog is also a subset Panantukan. Now even though we are referring to empty-hand fighting in general, since we are using the western term "boxing", we are implying that the empty-hand fighting being spoken of comes from the base of a western boxing biomechanic. So in my mind, when we use the term "Panantukan", we are referring to working from a basic western boxing base or biomechanic to bring in all of the other FMA empty-hand fighting tactics that flow well from that base. At least that's how I see it. :-)

Keith

[samson818]

I agree with Doc on this point.
I think most people/groups who train "Panantukan" come from the the Inosanto/Lacoste line.
IMHO, he has really developed and emphasized this part of FMA training in the USA.
Inosanto groups train usually in Thai Boxing, Western Boxing, Maphilido Silat, as well as various FMA's, so I see alot of bleeding over into their Panantukan.

Most of the FMA groups I have come across in the Philippines do have an empty hands curriculum, but they do not train it as often.
I would say they focus 80-90% of their time on weapons (stick, blade, sword, etc. depending on the system).
And many times there is alot of influence from other arts such as Aikido, Jujitsu, Karate, Kung Fu, and Silat.
Simply a different emphasis in training.

And yes, Sikaran in the Philippines is indeed very much like TKD.
Many children play this in the pronvince much like hackey sack in the USA.
I have to say, however, I have seen many fierce Sikaran fighters.
They can be extremely effective kickers, especially at their range, considering they started since a young age.

[jayMa]

I think that Rick Faye's videos are some of the best! Does anyone have the book that Rick Faye made and is it worth buying? Also, has anyone purchased or seen Harley Elmore's videos on Panantukan? Are they worth purchasing? They seem a bit expensive...

thanks

[Doc]

Hey Jayma!

See my previous post:

1. I recently purchased the 2 DVD set from Rick Faye. These are very good as well. They are about 90 minutes apiece and just full of info. I also highly recommend Guro Faye's book on the subject. It is the only book I know of that covers Panantukan. It is put together as a training notebook and the DVDs follow along with it pretty well.

The book is definitely worth buying! As far as I know, its the only book you are going to find on the topic of Panantukan. As far as Harley Elmore's vids.....I asked the same question. Anybody know the answer? :-)

Keith

[Silence_sucks]

samson818 i have often wondered that about the gunting, and every time i do i end up hitting myself in the bicep over and over again. It has its pros and cons which i realised when training against this giant Scandinavian bloke in class and i literally could not reach his biceps his arms were that long, though as guro Inosanto said just because the technique doesn't work for us doesn't mean its not a valid technique, generally the instructors and guros who have been doing stick work for the last however many years or heavily muscled people can put enough force into the destruction even when my guro slaps instead of knuckles for saftey it hurts like hell. The thing i did find good about it though is it can be used on the ulna nerve or the crazy bone, this can also force the arm to bend inwards and is closer than the brachial nerve in the bicep meaning that the punch does not have to come in a close to your face to destroy. Doc, i agree totally panantukan is a good way to describe the empty handed element of fma - in the lacoste/inosanto system although we learn panantukan as just the boxing we learn pananjakman alongside it and are encouraged to be able to integrate the both as well as dumog plus transition into jun fan, silat, muay thai whatever you know that works for the situation.

[Ern-Dog]

6. I've seen the promotional shots for Ernie Lake's Panantukan videos and they look pretty good. I will likely get them eventually as well. From the promo shots, my impression is that Guro Lake is focusing on knife application from the Panantukan, but I could be wrong. Has anyone seen these. Guro Lake...are you reading? :-)Hello All,

In all 3 Volumes of the Punyo Mano Panantukan series the knife application is shown before the empty hand application. I feel this is extremely important in getting a better understanding of the "root" of the empty hand techniques.

Brief synopsis of the 3 Videos....

Vol. 1 is an introduction to Panantukan, also known as Pangamut, but the emphasis is on the close quarters range known as Puno Mano. Topics covered are: Striking tools, Entries, as well as off-balancing techs.

Vol. 2 in the series takes these concepts a step further. Showing different options off opp.'s counters.

Vol. 3 will cap the series off with some more advanced options, and it will also show how to apply everything in the previous two DVDs while entering through your own punching combinations.

[DAMAG-INC]

Since I moved back to Houston from NC last November, I've a handful of guys that train with me privately. The following links are videos that we used as our "notes" for review.

Panantukan 101

video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_QptRhfKE

Video 2 -Footwork and evasive angling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgqG4Vs_K44

Video 3 - Gunting, Limb Destructions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH-0yOFbURs

Can you DIG IT!

[arnisador]

video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_QptRhfKE


The approach in this one is very JKD, including a version of the straight blast!

[lhommedieu]

Another consideration would be Chris Petrilli's "Secrets of Pangamot" DVD set from Paladin Press. Information about the DVD's can be found at the following URL:

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1277

Most of the DVD set shows unarmed defense against single stick attacks although there are numerous examples of how the locks and throws shown can be applied against an unarmed attacker.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[DAMAG-INC]

The approach in this one is very JKD, including a version of the straight blast!
In fact, I also do have a JKD Concepts background through my instructor Tim Mousel in Houston. I could have went full on with a real straight blast too but since my partner is still new to contact and recovering from training in a mc-dojo, I still want him to come back to train so he can be prepared for when I really blast him.

[Karambit]

Vol. 3 will cap the series off with some more advanced options, and it will also show how to apply everything in the previous two DVDs while entering through your own punching combinations.
Hello Ernie, do you have a rough ETA for volume 3..thanks :coolyello

[Grand Dragon]

Guro Cass taught me a Silat version of the straight blast in which you blast with your fists with the palms facing at an upward angle.
The thought is to biomechanically produce the knuckles (which would now be on the bottom) for more penetration.
You can still blast just like you do in your formal JKD training, but you have a little bit more pronounced knuckle impact and your forearms cover more surface area. Thus, increasing more of a smothering effect and assiting a bit more in tactile sensitivity.
One can easily introduce this version of the straight blast in FMA empty hands techniques.

[Brock]

Guro Cass taught me a Silat version of the straight blast in which you blast with your fists with the palms facing at an upward angle.

I believe that would be Djuru 1 in Sifu Cass' system, but from the other Silat systems I've seen it's pretty much the standard 1st Djuru.

[Grand Dragon]

Brock, I don't bother learning Djurus anymore. And yes, you're right, the upward fist is standard, but I honestly haven't personally seen too many people use it as a continuous straight blast. That's why it's turned slightly inward, not fully palm up.
Thanks for your info.

[Rizaldy]

If you can get a hand on Terry Gibson's Maphilindo Video series, those are really good too.

[gagimilo]

Speaking of the fist orientation, Burton Richardson recommends almost fully rotated fist, calling that approach "the boxing blast". also, it is important in that type of work to run with your feet, thus making every hit being a rear hand cross, for power.

[Doc]

Hi Guys! I thought I would try and breath some new life into this thread.

As I see it there are basically 3 versions of the history of Panantukan that go something like this:

1. Panantukan is a historical method that goes way back in the Phillipines. It is empty hand work based upon the use of a knife, and therefore emphasizes evasiveness and lots of movement. Around the turn of the century western boxers were exposed to Panantukan and picked up on its biomechanics. This is said to be responsible for the transition from the old bare-knuckle style of boxing to what we now consider "modern" boxing. I think this version of the story is meant to make Panantukan sound more "traditional" and "respectable." But I have done some research on western boxing and there are all kinds of problems and holes in this version. I don't find much at all to support it. There are plenty of good explanations of why the old "John L. Sullivan" style of boxing transitioned to the "modern" style without bringing Panantukan into it.

2. Panantukan existed in the Phillipines in a general sense if not outright, and had a similar powerbase as western boxing because, again...it was based upon knife-fighting and evasiveness. As western boxing became more and more popular throughout the world, Panantukan players recognized the similaries and began to incorporate western boxing into what they were doing. This version is more plausible, but has some problems of its own. The biggest being that you just don't find much Panantukan in the Phillipines (or so I've been told).

3. What seems to me to be the most likely and the most plausible version is this: In more recent times, players that had learned both FMAs and western boxing came up with a general approach that combined both and came to be called Panantukan. I think one of the major contributors was likely Lucky Lucaylucay. He and his father were both competitive boxers in Hawaii. They of course also knew FMAs. Guro Inosanto credits Lucky Lucaylucay with introducing Panantukan to his academy. I think it is likely that he was one of...if not the...key creator of the method. Again, as I stated before, its not a big stretch. Start with a thorough grounding in western boxing, and then start adding on principles and methods from Kali empty hands...limb destructions, zoning, body manipulations, knees, elbows, etc.....and you've got Panantukan.

I had a pretty long exchange/debate/argument with a guy on rec.martial-arts awhile back who claimed that Panantukan did not exist and was just a sham put forth by charlatans. His main reasoning was that you don't find it in the Phillipines, and that the term "Panantukan" simply refers to western boxing. He even quoted from a Tagalog dictionary. I pointed out that regardless of its status in the Phillipines, it is a part of the curriculum of several of the biggest FMA academies in the US, and has several different videos and a book produced that cover it. This makes it legitimate here in the states. It doesn't matter to me one bit if no one is doing it in the Phillipines. I got the last word in, whether I convinced him or not. :-)

It seems to me that Panantukan was just a natural evolution for FMAs in the west. For westerners with an actual background in boxing, or even with no background other than growing up in our culture and seeing it all their lives, Panantukan comes more naturally and is the ideal way to make their boxing more "martial." From the perspective of FMA instructors, Panantukan is an excellent way to attract and appeal to westerners who might not otherwise be interested in martial arts. I think that too often Panantukan gets lost in a curriculum that includes JKD, Thai Boxing, Silat, etc. Most only know of it from vague references when training. They might go through a series of motions and the instructor comments "this comes from Panantukan," and then they're off and doing a JKD drill. Panantukan deserves to be taught in an organized fashion in its own right, separately and independant from the rest. I do Panantukan. I don't do JKD, Thai Boxing, etc. There are similarities, but Panantukan has a flavor all its own that I like and seek to develop.

Keith

[wes tasker]

Panantukan deserves to be taught in an organized fashion in its own right, separately and independant from the rest.


Doc - I could not agree with you more... That is one (of many...) things I like about Mr. Faye's program. He has it all fleshed out and teaches Panantukan independantly. Did you ever see Mr. Elmore's Panantukan DVD? I have Volume 1 but not the second one yet...

-wes tasker

[Doc]

Did you ever see Mr. Elmore's Panantukan DVD? I have Volume 1 but not the second one yet...

-wes tasker

Haven't seen them yet. What do you think of his first video? How does it compare to Guro Faye's videos? I thought about getting them recently, and saw that he is soon to release a DVD on Maphilindo Silat. So I thought I might wait until it comes out and order all 3 at once. I have Ron Balicki's recently released Panantukan DVDs on order, but they haven't come yet. I'll do a review here once I've had a chance to watch them.

Keith

[wes tasker]

Doc-

Mr. Elmore's first DVD had two interesting things in it that I believe differentiate it from other DVD's on Panantukan. One is that he teaches the "series" that Manong John LaCoste taught to Guro Dan Inosanto. I'm a history geek, so I thought that was great to see. The other is that he explores the blade application more than other DVD's that I've seen on this subject. His second DVD looks pretty cool with the focus mitt feeds etc., but I'll have to wait on that one. Mr. Faye's remain my favorite, and I'm waiting to see if and when he comes out with Volume III. I'd love to hear what you think of Mr. Balicki's series...

-wes tasker

[sifu uga]

I agree. Many of us lose the pure Panantuken in our JKD curriculum. I know I myself am guilty of this at times. With so many tools at our disposal it is important to first have a solid foundation in Panantuken. After reading this reminder I am going to be more mindful to not lose it in the shuffle. Thanks guys.

[arnisador]

Many of us lose the pure Panantuken in our JKD curriculum. I know I myself am guilty of this at times. With so many tools at our disposal it is important to first have a solid foundation in Panantuken.

What all is included in the Panantuken curriculum? How complete is it?

[Doc]

What all is included in the Panantuken curriculum? How complete is it?

I can't answer for Sifu Uga, but the Panantukan that I study and practice is pretty complete! Of course it includes striking with fist, open hand, and elbows because it is, after all, "boxing." It also includes the "standard" boxing defenses like the catch, cuff, cover, etc. But it also covers the limb destructions or "guntings", joint locks and manipulations, and body manipulations and takedowns. Hubud or "energy drills" are also an important part of the curriculum. If you consider Panajakman and Dumog as "subsets" of Panantukan, then it also includes low-line kicks and some grappling. I like to break the training up into 5 different drilling or training platforms for skill development:

1. Jab entry drills
2. Catch and return drills
3. Focus mitt drills
4. Heavy bag drills
5. Hubud

Keith

[arnisador]

That's so much more than the simple drill that gets called Panantukan so often. It's like Sinawali, I guess--many people think of it as just a couple of simple exercises, but for others it's a complete art.

[Doc]

That's so much more than the simple drill that gets called Panantukan so often. It's like Sinawali, I guess--many people think of it as just a couple of simple exercises, but for others it's a complete art.

Yep! See, that's what I meant before about Panantukan getting lost in a diverse curriculum that includes JKD, Thai Boxing, etc. Lots of people get the impression that "panantukan" is just the limb destructions. But it is a complete art unto itself. Personally, I'm not interested in JKD or Thai Boxing. I like the "flavor" and the movement of Panantukan. Its too bad that it so often gets eclipsed by the other arts. So often the approach that people take is to go out and learn as many different things as possible. I just want to get really good at Panantukan.

Keith

[arnisador]

Yep! See, that's what I meant before about Panantukan getting lost in a diverse curriculum that includes JKD, Thai Boxing, etc. Lots of people get the impression that "panantukan" is just the limb destructions.

Where I take JKD we are taught that the limb destructions are from Kali more generally, and all we do from Panantukan is a set of "Panantukan drills" consisting of A punches B, B punches A, A punches B, reset, repeat with B starting the drill. But that's JKD--a little bit from everywhere. I use it to improve my range/timing/entering/transitioning skills in my base art of Modern Arnis, not as it's one style. I hope to see more of the Panantukan system some day!

[Doc]

Hey Guys!

I finally received Ron Balicki's DVD series entitled "Filipino Boxing." These are great DVDs! There are 3 in the series and each one is right at 2 hrs long. The production and instructional quality are excellent. Multiple camera angles and screen shots are used to show the action as clearly as possible. Balicki organizes the series into lessons by category and level. He covers basic punching, defenses, limb destructions, footwork, etc as you would expect. But he also goes into several structured lock flows both standing and on the ground as well as kicking and grappling. He gives a fairly in-depth coverage of hubud that really opened my eyes to applications I hadn't seen before. At times the video cuts to Balicki sparring with a student and showing some of the techniques and combinations coming out in "real time." The lessons are arranged so that one builds upon another as you progress through the DVDs. But if you wanted to see the entire hubud series, or the entire jab defense series, etc, all you have to do is select from the menu to watch those lessons back to back. These videos are really well done and IMHO are an absolute steal at the price I got them for! They are listed on Cold Steel's website for $99, but I got them from Jeff at the Cutlery Shoppe for $49. That's nearly 6 hrs of quality DVD instruction for the price that is often asked for one 45 minute DVD. Check it out here:

http://www.cutleryshoppe.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=8070

Keith

[Terry Trahan]

Very good review of the Balicki DVDs, and I think I will have to get them.
I also have a strong interest in panantukan/pangamot, and it is becoming my main focus right now.

Thanks, Terry

[Sisco T.]

i also recieved and watched balicki's Filipino boxing series. i think it's VERY good. it's pretty much broken down in a way, to me, that if you wanted to teach it this is the blueprint to the way you'd do it. very good info, very detailed info, and just nice to watch. doesn't make me fall asleep while watching like some other instructionals do.

Francisco

[darkwolfe]

Hi all, I've been interested in panantukan (just ordered Balicki's vid and Faye's book) and wanted to know what you all think of the application of it to mma, kickboxing, and full contact sparring. Do you think it works with combat sports? ...obviously with illegal blows removed. I was reading a post on Faye's vid at Bullshido and most people thought it wasn't effective. Their main complaint was that the parrying/trapping/destruction would be ineffective against a good western boxer. Another issue was that since the attacks were based on knife attacks, they weren't really effective (powerwise) when used empty handed. Your thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated.

[gagimilo]

I cannot say anything on Mr. Faye's video, since I haven't seen it, but Ron Balicki's one should dissolve those doubts, since most of hte techniques are also shown in full contact sparring.
Anyway, at Bullshido tehy are bringing some really valid points across, but it seems to me that they have gone alittle bit too far in that "agnostic" direction, i.e. seeing things out of context, just for the sake of criticizing them...

[darkwolfe]

Thx for the reply. Yeah, it seemed that some of the users do like to have negative things to say about almost everything. My Balicki dvd is on the way.

Btw, has anyone here sparred with Panantukan? If so, how did it go?

[NubreedKaliSilat]

My Guro Ron Balicki the son-in-law of Guro Dan Inosanto has DVD's out on Panantukan. I have not seen them yet. But I have them on order here is a link! http://www.ronbalicki.com/welcome1.htm

[Ray Smith]

I've seen the Ron Balicki DVD's and they are excellent. They cover just about everything. Money well spent in my humble opinion.

Ray Smith

[Epa]

I haven't seen the DVDs so I can't comment on them, but one of my training partners trained with Ron Balicki and he said that Mr. Balicki was a good instructor.

With regard to Panantukan, I think that the basic striking tools (boxing punches, elbows, knees, head butts) from panantukan are the most important skills. At different points in my training I've tried to put the different pieces of the Panantukan curriculum that I've learned into my sparring. The basic striking tools usually work the most efficiently.

More complex material like limb destructions and trapping can be used, but is not always worth the effort. In trying to set up this material you could just be hitting the person with basic attacks. I think a lot of people focus too much on this material and forget about just hitting the other person, at least I did.

The best thing that I got out of the Panantukan curriculum was the idea of off balancing and then hitting. If you can hit someone and then immediately shove them off balance, it makes it a lot easier to hit them again. This is a skill that Panantukan focuses on a lot and I think is worth developing. Look into the foot sweeps and checking the upper body to take someone's balance.

[darkwolfe]

Great points Epa. That seems like the most logical way to implement it. I also have just seen the KaliTudo video from the Dog Brothers and they emphasized standard boxing with Kali footwork. They gave examples of the boxer, Prince Naseem, as someone who uses similar footwork (though probably not Kali). Thanks again.

[Rizaldy]

Another great video set is the Maphilindo Silat Tapes by Terry Gibson. It's a rare 6 tape set. Goes over alot of the stuff that the Rick Faye dvds cover.

[JohnK]

Another great video set is the Maphilindo Silat Tapes by Terry Gibson. It's a rare 6 tape set. Goes over alot of the stuff that the Rick Faye dvds cover.

You know, I still have that series on VHS though I've not seen them in years. I don't even know if the quality has degraded to the point of unwatchability (its fun to make up words, no?)

Anyway, I saw this thread and wanted to chime in. It hits a mark within me and I'll make this brief for now...

I used to practice kali-silat. Dropped much of it about 10-11 years ago when MMA was new and I started working harder on that and grappling etc.

10-11 years later I have a decent boxing, clinch and ground game. Like guro Crafty calls, "Generic MMA".

So what happens? I start working Panantukan into the mix and my partners/students have no idea what's going on or how to approach it.

Basically, I had lost faith in the FMA for a bit. Years later I realize how stupid I was and that it wasn't the art so much as the idiot practicing it.

I will say however that it would benefit everyone to develop a core base in the fundamentals of boxing and wrestling/grappling. At least for me, it's because of that base and delivery system that I'm able to make a lot of this stuff work in an MMA sparring environment.

Anyway (I said I would make this brief). I'm curious to hear everyone else's point of view.

Thanks!

John

[arnisador]

I will say however that it would benefit everyone to develop a core base in the fundamentals of boxing and wrestling/grappling.

Everyone needs a jab and a cross, and everyone needs a takedown from the front and a defense against the same.

My time in BJJ has been very good for me even though I'm not at all good at it. I'm still heads-and-shoulders above those with no training in it.

[Joe Hubbard]

For a comprehensive overview of Panatukan/Silat check out Guro Mark Halleck’s very informative DVD series- there are 9 DVDs to choose from.

http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/marc_halleck_panantukan_silat.html (http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/marc_halleck_panantukan_silat.html)

Hey Rizaldy, are the Terry Gibson Maphilindo tapes still available?

Out

Joe

[deetee]

For a comprehensive overview of Panatukan/Silat check out Guro Mark Halleck’s very informative DVD series- there are 9 DVDs to choose from.

http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/marc_halleck_panantukan_silat.html (http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/marc_halleck_panantukan_silat.html)

Hey Rizaldy, are the Terry Gibson Maphilindo tapes still available?

Out

Joe

Hey Joe,

Long time no see mate. How are you these days? I hope you're keeping well. I have had the full set of Terry Gibson videos from way back when I was considering training under him. I would invite you over to have a look and catch up but I'm living in Melbourne now. We moved out here last October. The offer still stands..........

Take care mate,

Doug

[Doc]

Greetings all!

Just wanted to pop in and say "hi!" I've been out of the loop for awhile doing other things and am finally getting back to my Panantukan. Just to contribute to further discussion.....I recently purchased "Introduction to Madjapahit Silat" by Suzanne Luna Spezzano. You can get it here:

http://inosanto.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=121&osCsid=01a84f93a68086bb7bfbc1f6b52603d4

While its not Panatukan, it is Maphilindo Silat. If Panantukan is the striking phase of Maphilindo (like Pukulan in the Indonesian arts), then this DVD set represents the ground-fighting phase of Maphilindo Silat. This is not an area I have studied, but it appears to me that most of the material on this set is Harimau Silat, possibly via Herman Suwanda's Mande Muda. Regardless, this set of DVDs is very well done. The production quality is good, the instructional quality is good, the background setting is very picturesque, and Guro Spezzano is easy on the eyes! :) I recommend it if you are interested in Silat ground-fighting, or if you are fleshing out your skills to expand your Panantukan base into more of a Maphilindo Silat approach. As an aside....I just reviewed my copies of Guro Rick Tucci's vids for Espy. These videos represent the sweeping/throwing aspect of Maphilindo Silat. So combine either Guro Faye's or Guro Balicki's Panantukan vids with Tucci and Spezzanno and you've got a pretty good package.

Keith

[el maldito de cebu]

it was a great vid. nice one but I respect different aspect of martial arts it becomes deadly depending on the one using it.

[Rizaldy]

Hey Rizaldy, are the Terry Gibson Maphilindo tapes still available?

Out

Joe

Actually the Terry Gibson Tapes are extremely rare and hard to find. I got mine a couple years back from someone I found on the internet selling his collection of videos.

[jeff5]

I have Ron's DVDs and I think they are excellent. Rick Tucci's on Silat (he includes a ton of Panantukan), are great as well. I'll have to check out Rick Faye's.

[gagimilo]

I have seen the first DVD of rick Faye, as well as the one by Harley Elmore. Both are good, although different.
Balicki's presentation is, in my view, somewhat of a classroom adapted, i.e. goes over the material in lesson bits and covering various areas along the way, but gets back to those areas with new stuff as the student advances.
Faye's presentation is seminar-like, and his attention to detail in regards of the basic techniques is more pronounced than in Balicki's or Elmore's case. Also, I'd say that the progression featured is more gradual.
Elmore's presentation is...well...book-like, or lecture-like. It means he really separated different subjects and then work on them, which is great if you use his video as a lexicon or dictionary, and also it is maybe easier to see how things branch out from the same concept.

Anyway, while I have the entire set of Ron Balicki, I only have first volumes of Rick Faye and Harley Elmore, so I cannot really be the judge of who offers most information, but I'd say that only with Ron you'll find as much ground fighting stuff... Matter of fact, I believe there is a lot of stuff on his DVDs that are not panantukan, strictly speaking, but come from his Maphilindo material.

Hope this helps.

[silat1]

Guro Dan has a great Panatukan presentation in his latest set of the Filipino Martial arts dvds he made.. I was fortunate to get it and viewed it several times.. You can also get Steve Grody's flow of filipino empty hands and get a good idea of how he teaches the panatukan aspects of the FMA..

[Doc]

Hi Guys!

Maybe another topic to generate discussion? My first love and my focus is Panantukan. The main weapon that I train is the knife. After all, Panantukan is considered "blade awareness" boxing! But I don't neglect stick work either. However, I don't take it to nearly the depth and devote as much time to it as in the "classical" FMA systems. The stick work I do is somewhat similar to Serrada. I consider it "stick boxing." I learned this from Ted Lucaylucay at one of his seminars many years ago. He also put out an instructional video on the topic. Essentially I use a shorter stick at closer range than most. Hence the similarity to Serrada. I use "boxing" biomechanics and look to my Panantukan for inspiration on application rather than the other way around. It works good for me and reinforces my Panantukan training.

Keith

[jeff5]

I think the solution is to just get all those videos! I'm a martial arts junkie so I probably will =)). Doc that sounds like a very cool system!

[dboeren]

Fascinating stuff, I love it. I've only been studying Kali for less than two months now but it's mostly been stick and knife emphasis. We did have some empty handed applications which sounds like it may have been Panantukan but the instructor didn't use any particular term for it. Primarily it was centered on different variations of how to parry a jab or cross while using the other hand to attack the limb.

Maybe later once I've more experienced I'll pick on one of the video series mentioned. Right now I've got my hands full getting the basics down :)

[el maldito de cebu]

kali is very intreesting specially that you already experience the diferent bladed weapons and you already knew there uses in make you addicted.

[Doc]

Hey Guys!

How about another point? If you've learned Panatukan in the context of a Kali/JKD academy, then you've likely been exposed to the use of a training dummy. My background prior to Panantukan was Wing Chun Gung Fu. So I've done a lot of dummy training. Naturally, I then adapted a lot of my Panantukan to applications on the dummy. I view the wooden dummy like a "sophisticated heavy bag." You can train lots of lines and angles and applications. And the big benefit....the dummy is a training partner that is always around, never gets tired, and never complains!

The problem with the typical dummy is that you can't really go even close to "full power" on it and the wall mount limits your movement and where you can actually place the dummy. So I when I was recently shopping for a new dummy I looked for something that I thought was more appropriate for Panantukan than the usual Wing Chun or JKD hardwood dummy. I found it here:

http://www.thewarrior.com/warriors/phase1.htm

This dummy is free-standing, which allows you to move around and behind it to practice the wider variety of angles used in Panantukan as compared to Wing Chun. That also means you can put it where you want it and don't have to mount it to a wall. You can push it off into an out of the way corner when you aren't using it and then roll it out into an open area when you are ready to go. The trunk is also padded, which allows you to use the "boxing" punches from Panantukan with more realism as well as throwing in knees and elbows without injury. Put on a pair of MMA gloves while you train on this dummy and you can really crank it up! Wearing the gloves also allows you to practice the various gunting destructions on the arms of the dummy. I leave the leg off of my dummy, because it just seems to get in the way when doing Panantukan. Does anyone else train their Panantukan skills on a wooden dummy?

Keith

[yomitche]

hey Doc, who'd you train Wing Chun with? I grew up in Las Cruces and trained with guys there. What about you?

Cost and placement of a dummy makes it hard to have one. I haven't figured out how to use it for other than Wing Chun yet. Congratulations on adapting!

[Pitboss 306]

I trained in Kelly Worden's NSI Arnis for several years which is very much a hybrid JKD Kali, Heavy Kickboxing with Straightblasting, Limb destructions, Elbows, trapping tools, etc....

Kelly designed and manufactures a great training dummy called the Silent Fighter:

http://kellyworden.com/SilentFighter.html

You can work on it pretty much full bore, and have little damage return. Thick Skinned, Padded and Solid. I believe it was originally designed for stickwork when he was training with Remy Presas.

[Doc]

hey Doc, who'd you train Wing Chun with? I grew up in Las Cruces and trained with guys there. What about you?

Cost and placement of a dummy makes it hard to have one. I haven't figured out how to use it for other than Wing Chun yet. Congratulations on adapting!

I went to NMSU from 1983 to 1987 and trained with Joy Chaudhuri..who was a professor in the government department at the time. I also traveled back and forth to Tucson to train with his teacher...Augustine Fong. I've also trained Kali/JKD with Rex Kimball. He grew up in Deming and was living in Cruces at the time. I've discovered lots of things to train on the dummy that aren't Wing Chun. I consider it a good investment. Especially if you don't have a group of guys you train with several times a week. The dummy can take up some of the slack.

Keith

[Doc]

I trained in Kelly Worden's NSI Arnis for several years which is very much a hybrid JKD Kali, Heavy Kickboxing with Straightblasting, Limb destructions, Elbows, trapping tools, etc....

Kelly designed and manufactures a great training dummy called the Silent Fighter:

http://kellyworden.com/SilentFighter.html

You can work on it pretty much full bore, and have little damage return. Thick Skinned, Padded and Solid. I believe it was originally designed for stickwork when he was training with Remy Presas.

I've seen those before in the magazines. They look good, and would obviously be better for stickwork than the warrior dummy. If they could only make it free-standing it would be even better! :-) I still like the arm configuration from the Wing Chun version. Maybe its just because I'm biased, but I think it would provide for better "hand work." But I've never had the opportunity to try the Silent Fighter. Do you train Panantukan on one? Thanks!


Keith

[Pitboss 306]

I guess it's all a matter of definitions, right?
I can work Pangamut angles, limb destructions and close quarter kickboxing stuff I learned from Pekiti-tirsia's Grand Tuhon Gaje on a silent fighter, no problem, plus most of the NSI Kuntaw and JKD kickboxing drills I learned from Kelly...

I'm pretty sure all that combined is a pretty decent mesh... how much is actual "Panantukan" is still a mystery.

[yomitche]

Hey, Doc, we just might know each other. I trained with Joy also, and after he moved to the Phoenix area, I continued training with Kurt Saenz. I used to clean the school for Joy and Kurt in exchange for lessons (which I did for probably about four years or so - so you might remember me for that also). Rex Kimball sounds familiar... don't know why, though. Keith Myers and I palled around quite a bit together, if that helps.

My name is Mitch York. I would have been probably the youngest person in the WC school. It's a small world.

After leaving home for the military, I wasn't happy with most WC schools/teachers, so eventually gravitated toward FMA and now train exclusively (for about the last year) in Balintawak (maybe because of the WC translation and background). I cross train in other things, but the Balintawak is what has me posting on this forum. Nice to chat with you and good to see a WC brother from Cruces on this board!

Mitch

[Doc]

Well, hell ya Mitchell! Its me Keith Myers! :-) Carol and I moved back to the area about 2 yrs ago. As soon as I got here to Ft. Bliss they sent me to Iraq for a year. So I've been back and working at the hospital for right at 1 year. How are things with you?

Keith



Hey, Doc, we just might know each other. I trained with Joy also, and after he moved to the Phoenix area, I continued training with Kurt Saenz. I used to clean the school for Joy and Kurt in exchange for lessons (which I did for probably about four years or so - so you might remember me for that also). Rex Kimball sounds familiar... don't know why, though. Keith Myers and I palled around quite a bit together, if that helps.

My name is Mitch York. I would have been probably the youngest person in the WC school. It's a small world.

After leaving home for the military, I wasn't happy with most WC schools/teachers, so eventually gravitated toward FMA and now train exclusively (for about the last year) in Balintawak (maybe because of the WC translation and background). I cross train in other things, but the Balintawak is what has me posting on this forum. Nice to chat with you and good to see a WC brother from Cruces on this board!

Mitch

[yomitche]

No Crap! It really is a small world! I'm gonna send you a message through the forum's service so I don't take up too much space on the Panantukan thread and try to keep this public discussion on its original course.

Panantukan-wise though...

Been spending quite a bit of time adapting my WC style over time to address different ranges, tactics, and attributes.

I spent a LOT of time (years, in fact... not even sure I'm done yet) on the Chum Kiu idea --- bridging the gap. I see this as the crucial element, for me, in fighting. I can learn every technical aspect of a system, but unless and until I can get into a range, where I am comfortable, and be able to move out again if necessary, all the technical skills are trivial.

I can obviously still play "classical" WC, but tend to approach things slightly differently now. Empty handed, I tend to keep rear heel up almost exclusively, to allow for greater mobility and hip rotation. My Balintawak guro says I "shoot in" to a fault. When I enter, I change levels and so forth, quite a bit. Attack hip level to disrupt balance (for example), come up while trapping, attack centerline, blow a knee, keep moving through them. If my rear heel is planted, I can't shoot in as quickly as I'd like for either a takedown or an "intercepting" entry.

You remember the tournament we went to at White Sands years ago? If the other fighter was willing to stand and trade with me, I'd probably win hands down. Mobility was the issue then and now. I tend to intercept the opponent now, and attack their centerline (classical WC here) which requires crap loads of speed, mobility, and instant determination.

I still like to fight up close and personal. Go figure. Once I bridge the gap, most fighters are uncomfortable. The "modified" mapo footwork, ability to continuously and rapidly destroy centerline, and disrupt body geometry (silat) makes my style work (I think).

Limb destructions are a part of bridging the gap and as Ron Balicki says - "don't stay to admire your work." I try to keep on the move.

Of the videos you mentioned earlier, I don't believe you mentioned the Balicki "Filipino Boxing" 3 DVD set. I don't have the others you listed, and intend to get the Rick Faye material at some point, but would definitely recommend the Balicki ones also.

Inside, when most folks are trying to figure out what I'm doing, and start grasping at me because things are getting beyond their comfort level, I look for opportunities to take down and get a submission - but in weapons arts, it's probably best not to roll around on the floor too much.

GM Jorge Penafiel asked me one day "do you grapple?" after watching me with another escrima student. I said yes, I can. He just shook his head. Told the other guy to stay away from it! LOL.

I love the ability of FMA's to translate not only other weapons, but to empty hand fighting as well - - Panantukan.

Guro Malanyaon and I are starting to play more with knives (sounds dangerous, huh?) and bunyos (palm stick). Turns out EVERYTHING we do works with both of these weapons and EMPTY HANDED as well. It's just a matter of investing the time to see how ranges and different weapons work for us.

We also spend quite a bit of time knocking the hell out of each other with weapons, so to say we are shooting for a high level of realism is accurate. We do some boxing as well.

We do quite a bit of empty hand work in the Balintawak club, including heavy bag work, etc. like boxing.

Boxing skills, and therefore the change in stance, complement the Balintawak I practice maybe more than anything else.

I am pretty interested in studying either Muay Thai or Bukti Negara. I have very qualified instruction available in both and need to decide which to invest my time in. I think the Muay Thai would complement the Balintawak more than Bukti Negara, but think the Silat complements my overall fighting style more than anything else. Maybe you have some input on this?

Anyone else here have any input on this? The more I learn about Silat, the more impressed I am with it... but still reluctant to make the big plunge and devote the next several years to actually "getting it."

What would others here choose to do in this case?

[Doc]

Hey Mitch!

Been spending quite a bit of time adapting my WC style over time to address different ranges, tactics, and attributes.

---It sounds like we have undergone similar "evolutions" in what we do.


Empty handed, I tend to keep rear heel up almost exclusively, to allow for greater mobility and hip rotation.

---I've been doing this for several years now as well. Kind of a "JKD-ized" version of the Wing Chun stance. Which is another reason why a transition to Panantukan was so natural.


If my rear heel is planted, I can't shoot in as quickly as I'd like for either a takedown or an "intercepting" entry.

---I agree. It makes a big difference in mobility and power generation. Wing Chun guys talking about moving from the "kwa" and using the hips. But they aren't really doing it as well as they could when they keep the rear heel planted.


You remember the tournament we went to at White Sands years ago? If the other fighter was willing to stand and trade with me, I'd probably win hands down. Mobility was the issue then and now.

--I remember! :-)

I tend to intercept the opponent now, and attack their centerline (classical WC here) which requires crap loads of speed, mobility, and instant determination.

---That's where the hubud skills come in. Hubud (or Chi Sao) is all about gaining control and an advantageous position after you have an "attachment" with the opponent. It doesn't matter how you got there. The minute you touch or "bridge in", contact sensitivity skills come into play.


I still like to fight up close and personal. Go figure. Once I bridge the gap, most fighters are uncomfortable.

---Yep! Most guys don't know how to deal with someone that close! A lot of Panantukan is in-fighting as well. My favorite motto is "take their space and smash their face!"


The "modified" mapo footwork, ability to continuously and rapidly destroy centerline, and disrupt body geometry (silat) makes my style work (I think).

---I agree. You have to disrupt their balance...take their space. Too many Wing Chun guys are focused on Chi Sao tactics to tie up the arms. They don't go in and actually move the opponent to destroy his base. That's why my Wing Chun gravitated towards Robert Chu's method. He does disrupt base! But I discovered that I can do it even more effectively with Panantukan using Dumog applications and the some of the silat concepts as you mentioned.



Of the videos you mentioned earlier, I don't believe you mentioned the Balicki "Filipino Boxing" 3 DVD set.

---Go back a bit. I reviewed them and others commented on them as well.




Inside, when most folks are trying to figure out what I'm doing, and start grasping at me because things are getting beyond their comfort level, I look for opportunities to take down and get a submission

---Yep! That's where the Dumog phase of Panantukan kicks in.


but in weapons arts, it's probably best not to roll around on the floor too much.

---Its OK as long as their is no blade! There is a lot of grappling in the Dog Brother's stick-fighting method. Guro Inosanto also shows a lot of chokes and locks using the stick on the ground on his Dumog DVD.



I love the ability of FMA's to translate not only other weapons, but to empty hand fighting as well - - Panantukan.

---Me too! Its much more adaptable than any other martial art I have been exposed to.


Guro Malanyaon and I are starting to play more with knives (sounds dangerous, huh?) and bunyos (palm stick). Turns out EVERYTHING we do works with both of these weapons and EMPTY HANDED as well. It's just a matter of investing the time to see how ranges and different weapons work for us.

---Yep! Panantukan has been referred to as "blade awareness boxing." Almost everything we do in Panantukan could also be done with a knife in reverse grip.



Boxing skills, and therefore the change in stance, complement the Balintawak I practice maybe more than anything else.

---That's good!


I am pretty interested in studying either Muay Thai or Bukti Negara. I have very qualified instruction available in both and need to decide which to invest my time in. I think the Muay Thai would complement the Balintawak more than Bukti Negara, but think the Silat complements my overall fighting style more than anything else. Maybe you have some input on this?

---I think the Muay Thai would give you the most direct and quickest returns on your emtpy-hand fighting. The Bukti Negara would certainly teach you how to do the various sweeps and balance disruptions, but these things are present within FMA as well. And the "boxing mechanic" in Muay Thai would probably translate the most readily to your Balintawik, from what little I've seen of it.

Anyone else here have any input on this? The more I learn about Silat, the more impressed I am with it... but still reluctant to make the big plunge and devote the next several years to actually "getting it."

---Yeah. I think your fastest return for time invested would likely come from Muay Thai.

Keith

[Doc]

Hey Guys!

I am working on a website specifically for Panantukan. Anyone have suggestions or things you would like to see?

Keith

[yomitche]

Hey Keith! I think a Panantukan specific website would be a great idea! I'm sure you have already thought of covering all of the content I would like to see, but just to help with some "objective" feedback...

1. A "History of..." or "What is..." page
2. Image and video gallery to demonstrate Panantukan
3. Contact information for practitioners/schools that offer instruction
4. A bibliography of written and video media
5. Separate from the bibliography, organized reviews of the same
6. Events page, listing seminars etc. that may be of "timely" interest to others.

These are just a few of the first thoughts that would cross my mind in creating a website. Hope it helps!

Mitch

[lhommedieu]

Panantukan has been referred to as "blade awareness boxing." Almost everything we do in Panantukan could also be done with a knife in reverse grip.

Tuhon William McGrath recently made this post (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=5444) that shows empty hand vs. knife techniques. What's interesting about these techniques is that they are modular and can be seen as falling into a continuum: empty hand vs. empty hand, empty hand vs. knife, knife vs. knife, double knife vs. double knife, knife vs. empty hand, etc.

Best,

Steve

[NubreedKaliSilat]

I have every dvd and book on Panantukan that has been put on the market.......I am going to buy the Guru Suzanne Luna Spezzano MADJAPAHIT SILAT dvd when Guro Inosanto comes to Denver in Jan. 2009

[Ern-Dog]

FCS video productions is proud to announe the release of Punyo Mano Panantukan Vol. 3

You can find it at www.fcskalikentucky.com (http://www.fcskalikentucky.com/)

Check out the the highlight clip on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLv3uuis60s

[arnisador]

Nice clip! I like how he makes the connection between the elbow destruction of the bicep and the knife slash to it.

[Doc]

Hi Guys!

I've recently moved to Germantown Maryland if anyone in the area is interested in getting together to train some Panantukan. Just drop me a line! kmyers 3770 @ aol. com

Keith