Do you carry a blade on a regular basis?

[Carol]

The FMAs have a rich history of blade training.

How many of you folks carry a blade, for whatever reason, on a regular basis?

[Carol]

Personally, I do carry. While my primary motivation is self-protection, I've found it to be very convenient to carry something that can cut through tye-wraps and open boxes upon demand. :D

[arnisador]

Not always, but when I think I may need one, yes. So, reasonably often! I do have a keychain blade (about 2") that I use for boxes etc. It's been very handy for, of all things, piles of newspapers, at the school and in stores, that still have that band around them!

[balita]

Do you carry a blade on a regular basis?
By Carol Kaur - Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:39:46 GMT

====================

The FMAs have a rich history of blade training.

How many of you folks carry a blade, for whatever reason, on a regular basis?


Read More... (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40842&goto=newpost)


------------------------------------
MartialTalk.com Post Bot - FMA Feed

[kabaroan]

Always, everyday. I feel naked without one.

[arnisador]

Often, but far from always (apart from the very small utility blad on my keychain)!

[Brock]

Nearly daily. It's useful at my job.

[langgaw]

No, I don't. Logic suggests that you are bound to use it in times of trouble. An empty hand is more than enough and that is the main training skill learned anyway. Knives and other weapons are only used as extension osyour empty hands. But when trouble comes, other tools can can quickly become a knife like your keys, pen, credit cards, wedding ring and my favorite part ....my fingernails. Arnis teaches all these anyway and in tha way one will not have to worry about getting searched and caught with a bladed weapon and no gets cut from a nasty edge of a knife. Also it might cause death accidentally. My 1/2 cent. Despite I think people feel more confident and secure when they carry a knife.

[Carol]

Just a note - two threads on identical subjects (one thread posted by me, the other thread was brought over on Balita) are now merged.

Carol Kaur
FMATalk Moderator

[Carol]

No, I don't. Logic suggests that you are bound to use it in times of trouble. An empty hand is more than enough and that is the main training skill learned anyway. Knives and other weapons are only used as extension osyour empty hands. But when trouble comes, other tools can can quickly become a knife like your keys, pen, credit cards, wedding ring and my favorite part ....my fingernails. Arnis teaches all these anyway and in tha way one will not have to worry about getting searched and caught with a bladed weapon and no gets cut from a nasty edge of a knife. Also it might cause death accidentally. My 1/2 cent. Despite I think people feel more confident and secure when they carry a knife.

Fighting empty-handed also might cause death accidentally.

No martial art should be performed irresponsibly.

[James]

I carry a weapon all the time. It's my mind. That little quip being said, I have my CCW, carry a Glock 19, and my knives. I'm more of a knife guy (since I've trained in the FMA so long). I usually carry my custom small fixed blade by Ivan Campos (http://www.bladebazar.com/eindex.htm) on my strong side and a waved Spyderco Endura on my complimentary side. I usually carry a flashlight and some other "less than lethal" option as well. Designed for pakal grip:

[langgaw]

I totally agree with the issue on accidental killing and the responsible use of martial art. I just think that when one learns a martial art, he/she becomes a weapon in itself and use of it/yourself becomes a huge resposibility. Maybe I have a different view i.e. when I have a knife, I am 10x deadlier than one w/o especially if I am trained properly with it. As to the opponent, he/she is now faced with the burden of sidarming or avoiding the knife. Also, having a knife will tend to make me attack and not be self defensive anymore because I nkow that the opponent will fear the look of the knife more than me......Now if he has a knife/any weapon, that is a different story because he culd be attacking you and the role is reversed. IMO, knives are scary and as I said before, Some people feel better with aa knife/weapon by their side. Your worry is dramaticallyreduced except for the constables who always asks for a reasno... regards to all

[arnisador]

my custom small fixed blade by Ivan Campos (http://www.bladebazar.com/eindex.htm)

That's a neat-looking knife! I like the simple, stylish look of many of the knives on that page.

[James]

That's a neat-looking knife! I like the simple, stylish look of many of the knives on that page.

Thanks! I really like the way Ivan's knives look, and it's one of the reasons I went to him to help me make my knife. It's small enough to carry but feels great in the hand. The wharncliffe blade is easy to sharpen, has good penetration and creates a good wound channel, and it also facilitates trapping or "hooking" when the knife is held in pakal. The end is beveled to cap it with your thumb.

The aesthetics are Japanese the fuction is Filipino.

James W

[Carol]

I totally agree with the issue on accidental killing and the responsible use of martial art. I just think that when one learns a martial art, he/she becomes a weapon in itself and use of it/yourself becomes a huge resposibility. Maybe I have a different view i.e. when I have a knife, I am 10x deadlier than one w/o especially if I am trained properly with it. As to the opponent, he/she is now faced with the burden of sidarming or avoiding the knife. Also, having a knife will tend to make me attack and not be self defensive anymore because I nkow that the opponent will fear the look of the knife more than me......Now if he has a knife/any weapon, that is a different story because he culd be attacking you and the role is reversed. IMO, knives are scary and as I said before, Some people feel better with aa knife/weapon by their side. Your worry is dramaticallyreduced except for the constables who always asks for a reasno... regards to all

Good points to bring up Langgaw. :)

Different fighters will have different perspectives on the same issue....but...keeping the reaction of law enforcement in mind is generally a good idea.

It can also help the defender to know how the law may apply to them. Masaad Ayoob has said that lethal force is an effective defense against rape in all 50 states. While I'm not legally qualified to comment on Mr. Ayoob's statement...I suspect that he is correct based on some of the material that I have seen from rape prevention organizations. However, the same rape prevention orgs agree that simply carrying a weapon is not enough...the carrier must have the training and the willingness to use it.

It's very much a personal decision :)

[nash]

Im almost never without my knife. It is pretty much a job requirement for me. About the only time I dont carry it is when I go to a place where there may be some trouble i.e. picking friends up from the bar.

[Carol]

Im almost never without my knife. It is pretty much a job requirement for me. About the only time I dont carry it is when I go to a place where there may be some trouble i.e. picking friends up from the bar.

Thats interesting...that you would prefer to be unarmed when potentially at a trouble spot. I can see why that can be important...esp. after langgaw's post.

[langgaw]

....lethal force is a good option against rape attempts and definitely the ability to use he knife. Another factor to consider is the presence of mind of the victim where fear paralyses (?) even a trained individual. In training, a practitioner should practice intently like it is really happening in order to ready the frame of mind in the real event. That way fear deminishesin actual situation. Especially for women and even in men where fear often times overcomes self confidence. I read of an incident when one lady was really overcomed by two rapists-to-be and using common sense allowed her attackers to fondle her and totally abandoned all efforts to resist. When they guys were all ready for action... she calmly told them that she has AIDS and some communicable disease and you know the rest of the story. Anyway, carrying a knife and its use is really as you said a personal choice.

[Matt Lamphere]

I carry every single day. The blade's use as a utility tool is invaluable to me.

Also ... to me the knife provides a mental focus point. A talisman if you will. (No I'm not a crazed knife worshipping kook :) ) it offers a certain level of confidence knowing that you have it on your person.

Do I ever really want to use it ? Absolutely not. Not only do you need to worry about the legal and ethical ramifications of "going all freddy kruger" on someone - there is the reality of transmitting disease. You get cut, your aggressor is cut (who is no doubt a surley, unclean sort of person) and now your mixing blood. Not a pleasant thought.

Of course there is also the question of whether you can actually deploy the thing in a high stress situation. If you are in "self defense" mode you are already behind the curve. You assailant has the advantage with timing, initiation, and deadly intent. You have your hands full with whats in front of you. The deck is already stacked against you because you've failed to manuever yourself to a safe position prior to engagement.

But of course there is always the "you never know" factor. Crazy things happen. Frankly knives are just really cool, and I'm a geek.

I suspect that this will be a debate for the rest of time :)

[Brian R. VanCise]

I always have multiple tools on my person. A utility knife is essential for day in and day out tasks. Folding knives are a perfect tool to help whether it be for a utility purpose or to protect yourself against some violent person.

[loyalonehk]

Very rare for me or my wife to not have at least a couple each on us at all times.

I carry on average 3 but have more within a few feet all the time. Mainly just being prepared and I am picky about having the right tool for the right job. I work as a Navy Corpsman and I am also an EMT. I have had to cut clothing to expose wound sites, cut utility belts off, shoe laces, 550 cord, tie downs, boxes, flesh, etc. I would prefer not to perform an Emergency Cric on someone with a blade that I just used to eat an apple or opened an MRE with. But I would....LOL

My wife... well, shes the one you gotta watch out for. CRAZY!!! :lookaroun

[Brock]

My wife... well, shes the one you gotta watch out for. CRAZY!!! :lookaroun

Isn't that redundant? (Oooh, am I gonna' get it for that one! :))

[loyalonehk]

Isn't that redundant? (Oooh, am I gonna' get it for that one! :))



You know what they say, "Birds of a feather..."

:biggrinbo

[Tarot]

Yup, I always have a blade on me. :) Depending on what I'm doing depends on the size and type of blade I carry. Most of the time I'm carrying a small folder that a dear friend gave to me. :bow:

[PG Michael B]

I carry my cold steel scimitar daily...and if need be I will back it up with a Kershaw Ken Onion Blackout and a Spyderco Karambit...as well as a USP .45 pistol....just depends on the circumstances. The scimitar is a good blade, works well as a utility knife as well.

[Carol]

As of now, the poll reads:

Do you carry a knife on a daily basis:

Yes - 15

No - 3

I expected the numbers to be strongly in favor of carrying, I didn't quite expect them to be as strong as they are :D

[jus_dann]

i have a keychain folder. i mostly carry a 5in folder in my pocket and sometimes a 99cent boxcutter(good cheap tool). and aways in the car, we have a telescoping baston and maglite. never leave home without `em. so yea,i always carry a blade.

[DAMAG-INC]

'Ya-damn-right I carry at least a couple of them badboys on me!

Here's a clip I filmed on what to do if your knife doesen't open WHEN you need it to in a streetfight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g6gZMOlWEw

[ap Oweyn]

I don't anymore, though I used to. I just started thinking "how prepared am I, really, to stab someone?" And I don't honestly know the answer to that question. And if I don't know whether I'd be willing to use it, then I've got no business deploying it. All that'll do is escalate the situation in a direction that I'm not sure I want to go.

I'm much more comfortable with impact weapons. More control over how much damage you're doing. Even the most "gentle" contact with a knife is going to do high levels of damage. Whereas a good whack across the thigh with a stick is likely to discourage an attacker without sending him to the morgue.


Stuart

[Beungood]

Yes, I carry 3 blades (Kershaw Talon, Spyderco Delica with Wave and Columbia River ansd Spyderco Police)with me while I am on duty hidden on my body where I can access them immediately and I Usually carry 2 when in street clothes whether I have an off duty weapon or not. For off duty I like the Spyderco with wave and Kersaw Talon, which has the blade edge reversed for Pakal grip. It has a blade running on a smooth ball bearing and opens quickly and effortlesssly.
http://i1.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/8b/da/3a85_1_b.JPG

[silat1]

I carry at least two of them at any one time.. my main folder changes from an emerson cqc 13 to a spyderco civilian depending on what the day dictates. In my work, I also carry a gerber applegate fairbairn folder in my left rear pocket and if I am not carrying that I carry a small fixed blade, either a kaspar/Crawford companion or a fixed blade apple gate/fairbairn on my thigh or in my cargo pants pocket as part of my roll out gear while on duty.. In the field, it varies on the conditions, so it goes from a cold steel trail master to a bowie knife of my own design

Bill
Defensive Tactics
Guam

[Ron B]

I carry a folding knife (right now a cold steel recon 1 folder)and a small maglite flashlite everywhere I go.I use the knife everyday as a tool and the flashlight as well.

Ron B

[kuntawguro]

I carry at least two of them at any one time.. my main folder changes from an emerson cqc 13 to a spyderco civilian depending on what the day dictates. In my work, I also carry a gerber applegate fairbairn folder in my left rear pocket and if I am not carrying that I carry a small fixed blade, either a kaspar/Crawford companion or a fixed blade apple gate/fairbairn on my thigh or in my cargo pants pocket as part of my roll out gear while on duty.. In the field, it varies on the conditions, so it goes from a cold steel trail master to a bowie knife of my own design

Bill
Defensive Tactics
Guam I can personally attest to Silat1 carrying. i took him to a seminar once straight fromthe airport. While we were sitting around the kitchen chatting he started pulling every sort of blade imaginable fromevery orifice, pocket , and holder on his body. Straight from the airport! He musta been busy reloading as we drove toward the seminar site cause i don't think they would have let him on the plane with that many deadly items.

[PG Michael B]

I can personally attest to Silat1 carrying. i took him to a seminar once straight fromthe airport. While we were sitting around the kitchen chatting he started pulling every sort of blade imaginable fromevery orifice, pocket , and holder on his body. Straight from the airport! He musta been busy reloading as we drove toward the seminar site cause i don't think they would have let him on the plane with that many deadly items.

I hear ya not only is wild Bill packing but his car is a rolling quisinart....every nook and cranny of that crown vic was bladed...hell loked like a 21st century chariot......dang Billy your a spooky old cobb. Take care guys

Mike

[silat1]

Well,
I guess that means that I won't be invited to go to the mainland for seminars any more. I was going not to respond to these comments made by Buzz and Mike, but what the devil, fun is fun.. I have always been a blade fan since I spent some time working on a farm while I lived in the south during my younger days.. Many a day goes by when I need the knife to cut paracord, nylon strapping or cargo netting when I was in the military, so it comes second nature to carry more than one..
Since I am back to work as a cop on the islands of the south pacific and have a problem with the snakes in some of the areas where we patrol, (ie in the boonies and unexploded ordinance from ww2) we need to have the ability to clear an area so we can get into the area as we also have problems with poachers and the snakes that get to be the size of a piece of rope measuring 2 inches in diameter and up to 6-7 ft in length, so you have to be able to clear the area when confronted with one..

That is the reason why I carry so many blades

[arnisador]

I can personally attest to Silat1 carrying. i took him to a seminar once straight fromthe airport. While we were sitting around the kitchen chatting he started pulling every sort of blade imaginable fromevery orifice, pocket , and holder on his body. Straight from the airport! He musta been busy reloading as we drove toward the seminar site cause i don't think they would have let him on the plane with that many deadly items.

That sounds more like Sayoc than Silat to me! :D

[silat1]

Nah,

not now or ever affiliated with the sayocs even though one of my students studied with them when he lived on the east coast,.. The closest thing I ever have gotten to the sayoc system is when I watched the hunted and received the 3 of 9 template from a student... In my job, I can't afford to rattle when I am working or approaching a crime scene.. I always get chastised for carry the blades I do, but if you do any history in the old fma and the scouts, you will find that the normal carry was about 3 knives, one to throw and two to cut and do the ginsu routine on if the situation dictates. I use the two knife carry to teach sinawali with while using a short blade and a blade of a different size, although a folder of different sizes and lengths.

Bill

[young blade]

I work as a stocker in one of the leading department stores here in garden grove, so I definitely need to carry a box-cutter as a tool (but offcourse we fma guys knows how to turn everything into a weapon right?)

[young blade]

....If the need arises I would really use it to defend myself

[tanod]

i carry a folding knife everyday, i use it for work.
plus my grandma said it scares bad spirits away.:)

[Carol]

I'm actually surprised at how many different times I've used it since I started carrying it. I expected to find it handy when working around racks of equipment, but I think I use it every day regardless of what project I'm working on. I've used it for everything from removing staples to resetting a stuck Blackberry.

Fortunately my senior managers have military service and haven't been too concerned about what's clipped to my jeans pocket. :D :D

[arnisador]

I'm actually surprised at how many different times I've used it since I started carrying it [...] I think I use it every day regardless of what project I'm working on.

That's has been very much my experience with the small keychain knife I'm using--as I was thinking this morning as I cut the wound-too-tight rubber bands off my Sunday paper! I am surprised how I often I use it, and how often I loan it to someone else to use.

[ScorpioVI]

Recently I've been carrying two Emersons. The Combat Karambit Folder on my strongside and the CKF Trainer on my weakside. I'm learning how to draw the karambit into a reverse grip on my weakside.

http://www.tacticalpursuits.com/images/myguns/070509_myknives_emersons.jpg


Sometimes I carry the CKF weakside and a Strider SnG strongside.

[Carol]

Recently I've been carrying two Emersons. The Combat Karambit Folder on my strongside and the CKF Trainer on my weakside. I'm learning how to draw the karambit into a reverse grip on my weakside.

http://www.tacticalpursuits.com/images/myguns/070509_myknives_emersons.jpg


Sometimes I carry the CKF weakside and a Strider SnG strongside.

Very very nice :)

[qupqugiak]

i carry just a cheap folding kerambit everywhere that allows it. while i definitely love a nice, nice knife, i want something that's a legal carry (fixed blades not legal in the state i live in), and something that isn't so nice it'll break my heart if i had to abandon it. the asian import store down the street from me has nice little 2-1/2" blade mtech folding kerambits for $15, and i've gone through 3-4 of them working on draws, etc.

i also like to carry some of the 'nonstandard' fma-style weapons everywhere possible. i'll pretty often have a palmstick with me, and will always wear a messenger-style bag to compliment sarong training.

to respond to some of the 'detractors' from a daily carry earlier on in the thread, i'll steal a line from the boy scouts, 'be prepared'. i believe that to feel comfortable with a carry, you have to carry it consistently. if 20 years down the road, there was a situation where extreme / lethal force was necessary and / or appropriate, and i wasn't prepared (either not equipped, or not comfortable with the equipment), i would be far less likely to be effective.

of course, not everybody trains in fma or any martial art for the practical or real-life application.

just as a side note: the building i work in has a 'no weapons' policy that makes me chuckle everytime i see it. in the hands of someone with intent, a CRT monitor, stapler, or pen makes a very effective weapon, even if they haven't trained a single day in their lives!

Q

[Carol]

i carry just a cheap folding kerambit everywhere that allows it. while i definitely love a nice, nice knife, i want something that's a legal carry (fixed blades not legal in the state i live in), and something that isn't so nice it'll break my heart if i had to abandon it. the asian import store down the street from me has nice little 2-1/2" blade mtech folding kerambits for $15, and i've gone through 3-4 of them working on draws, etc.

i also like to carry some of the 'nonstandard' fma-style weapons everywhere possible. i'll pretty often have a palmstick with me, and will always wear a messenger-style bag to compliment sarong training.

to respond to some of the 'detractors' from a daily carry earlier on in the thread, i'll steal a line from the boy scouts, 'be prepared'. i believe that to feel comfortable with a carry, you have to carry it consistently. if 20 years down the road, there was a situation where extreme / lethal force was necessary and / or appropriate, and i wasn't prepared (either not equipped, or not comfortable with the equipment), i would be far less likely to be effective.

of course, not everybody trains in fma or any martial art for the practical or real-life application.

just as a side note: the building i work in has a 'no weapons' policy that makes me chuckle everytime i see it. in the hands of someone with intent, a CRT monitor, stapler, or pen makes a very effective weapon, even if they haven't trained a single day in their lives!

Q

It's very true. A acquaintance of mine recently complained to me that one of the guys that she works with started throwing keyboards around. Not good.

[Wayuk-Oyaak]

I carry 2 types of blade everyday. One is a folder knife enough to be noticed as a keychain and second is a folder karambit about 3.5 inch blade length but I hide it close enough in case I might need it.



....Despite I think people feel more confident and secure when they carry a knife.
Correct. But here's the thing, I'm about 5 feet 6" tall - just an average hieght of a Filipino. If someone is taller then me and bigger in size also, the blade I carry is a good equalizer. Not all the time you will face a similar body structures on the street, bar, ball fields and some areas...

[langgaw]

On another note, As I grow older and so called wiser, I can choose to be in a position to engage or not and the chances of a deadly encounter to me are now is very slim as I walk around and being aware of my surroundings. I do not carry any knife at all as I have my own reasons one of which I may have said before, I will be compelled to use it because it is at hand and readily available for use and I could choose to just cut or kill being skilled in the use of a knife relatively compared to ordinary people ( I am already at an advantage plus the knife)........although I have my key and pen visibly available. I jsut find that once you are a good MA practitioner, you become the weapon itself and can use what you know ins elf defense at will. Avoiding trouble is the best policy and using it Only to avoid further trouble has now been my focus of its use. This could mean I am scared or yellow but that does not bother me as much as when I was younger and invincble ( you know the so called confidence of youth) before been there , done that plus the ugly side of politics and etc. I would advise ( I know Others wont like this) not to carry blades at all. Just my words of wisdom and open to discussion.

[silat1]

Since I came back to work as a LEO in the south pacific, I had to rethink my blade carry.. I carry an emerson cqc 13 in my front right pocket and change this one out from time to time with my spyderco civilian, an emerson cqc 7 in my left rear which is changed out with either my applegate fairbairn folder or a pat crawford pointguard depending on where i am going and where I am working.. In my ruck sack which also is used for my portable office, I carry either my applegate fairbairn fixed blade or one of 4 bowies that are used to clear out scenes and hack down limbs so we can get to the scene if the situation dictates.. I am in the process of working on getting a iwb sheath made for a couple of my bowies so I can use them as a back up without having to carry my ruck in situations where I don't need to have it with me..

Now Mike and Buzz, keep your comments to yourself or I won't find a couple of good pande to maintain the string of blades that you are requesting from the Philippines

Bill
Defensive Tactics Systems

Guam

[Carol]

Correct. But here's the thing, I'm about 5 feet 6" tall - just an average hieght of a Filipino. If someone is taller then me and bigger in size also, the blade I carry is a good equalizer. Not all the time you will face a similar body structures on the street, bar, ball fields and some areas...

I agree. I'm even smaller at 5' 2". Plus I work second shift so when I am commuting home or out for a walk after work, it's in the wee hours of the morning. While I live and work in very safe areas, I've seen a few things at 0-dark-30 that I don't see during the daylight.

Personally, while I do feel more confident with a knife, I don't feel invincible with a knife. Nor do I want to risk my professional reputation or disposable income by doing something stupid.

Confidence to me is important. The times I've come face to face with someone that....uh...did not have my best interests at heart, I was able to scare them off with attitude and presence alone. To me, that is the best situation of all (other than not getting in to one in the first place). I would much rather avoid a confrontation that be in a confrontation. :bow:

[Malapitan]

Yes,I carry a knife, a spyderco endura wave. It's primarily a tool, for daily chores like opening boxes,etc. But it's secondary function is as a self-defense weapon, which I will only deploy as an absolute last result. For less-than-lethal situations, I also carry a pasak (palm stick).

[Baddmojo]

Oh yeah, I use to just carry 1, but now I carry 2. Spyderco Endura(primary) and the Spyderco Credit Card knife(back-up). Both blades are last resort of course, If I cant' handle it empty hand or if the odds are stacked against me, I will then consider deploying the knife. Otherwise its' a legal "knifemare"!

Anthony

[arnisador]

The credit card knife I have is so heavy I find it annoying to carry (plus I worry I'll forget about it when I fly).

[franci1911]

Oh yeah, I use to just carry 1, but now I carry 2. Spyderco Endura(primary) and the Spyderco Credit Card knife(back-up). Both blades are last resort of course, If I cant' handle it empty hand or if the odds are stacked against me, I will then consider deploying the knife. Otherwise its' a legal "knifemare"!

Anthony

This is not a personal attack on any particular individual here. I have been reading into this particular thread for quite some time. If baffles me why some of you here on FMATalk would discuss what they carry, how many and where on your body you carry it. To me this is a personal process and should not be giving advantage to any particular adversary. But, since Anthony posted in reference to the legality of using a knife I think it's worth discussing the criteria for using lethal force in legitimate
self defense.

So what are the FOUR ELEMENTS necessary to legitimate self-defense:

1. Ability

2. Opportunity

3. Manifest intent (imminent jeopardy)

4. Preclusion

Ability:

If you applied deadly force against an individual that person must have been "able" to kill you or inflict serious bodily harm. Whether it be someone larger than you, someone with apparent martial arts skills, someone with a stick, bat or knife. Or are there multiple attackers. Also levels of aggression are to be considered within ability.

Opportunity:

If your attacker has the (ABILITY) the next question is does he/she have the opportunity? Is he/she within your immediate proximaty? Are you in the effective range of his/her weapon's? In law enforcement there is what is commonly known as the 21 foot rule. Whereby, for example if an individual is aggressively moving towards a police officer with knife in hand showing intent to cause harm and moves within approximately 21 feet deadly force can be utilized.

Imminent Jeapordy:

Did the attacker make definate, unmistakable indications whether by words or actions of his/her intentions to kill or seriously injure you. And these threats are immediate in nature. Or are the threats lacking definite form or vague. Do you wait until there is absolute knowledge that the threat is real? After all (INTENT) is subjective! And ones' intent to commit bodily harm on you does not ncecessarily need to be apparent to have imminent jeapordy present.

PRECLUSION:

Were all the other options precluded? Did you use deadly force as a last resort? Self restraint plays a key roll in how reasonable your actions were. Depending on the state that you reside in (PRECLUSION) is considered as a componant of self-defense while others have a mandatory retreat law.

So there is a great deal that one needs to consider when dealing within any situation where force on many levels is to be undertaken. And split second thought processes are put into play and our risk exposure can increase accordingly.

I do live by this old adage:
I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.

Sorry for the long rant. I thought about this for quite awhile before I posted and I am looking forward to your comments.

[abdon]

I ALWAYS carry 2 blades, sometimes 3.


Abdon

[viejo]

[quote=franci1911;15068]This is not a personal attack on any particular individual here. I have been reading into this particular thread for quite some time. If baffles me why some of you here on FMATalk would discuss what they carry, how many and where on your body you carry it. To me this is a personal process and should not be giving advantage to any particular adversary. But, since Anthony posted in reference to the legality of using a knife I think it's worth discussing the criteria for using lethal force in legitimate
self defense.

So what are the FOUR ELEMENTS necessary to legitimate self-defense:

1. Ability

2. Opportunity

3. Manifest intent (imminent jeopardy)

4. Preclusion
--------
The only thing I carry with me (not always) is a kamagong dulo..., I totally agree with you and just to think that in many countries also in the PH to carry a knife with you is not allowed by law I dont think you will have good chances explaining a judge why you carry and why u use it.....they will talk maybe about escalation and deescalation...(Im talking here about a "normal" situation where ur live was not really in danger)...
The moment you put the knife in your pocket means for many that u will be willing to use it.....
Just my half cent here.....
regards
Viejo

[arnisador]

Were all the other options precluded? Did you use deadly force as a last resort? Self restraint plays a key roll in how reasonable your actions were. Depending on the state that you reside in (PRECLUSION) is considered as a componant of self-defense while others have a mandatory retreat law.

So there is a great deal that one needs to consider when dealing within any situation where force on many levels is to be undertaken.

This is an excellent post, and it touches on many things that should but often aren't covered in a "self-defense" martial arts curriculum. While it's true about the tried by twelve/carried by six adage, thinking about the questions you list here can make it more likely that neither of those unfortunate outcomes occur.

[Baddmojo]

So what are the FOUR ELEMENTS necessary to legitimate self-defense:

1. Ability

2. Opportunity

3. Manifest intent (imminent jeopardy)

4. Preclusion

Ability:

If you applied deadly force against an individual that person must have been "able" to kill you or inflict serious bodily harm. Whether it be someone larger than you, someone with apparent martial arts skills, someone with a stick, bat or knife. Or are there multiple attackers. Also levels of aggression are to be considered within ability.

Opportunity:

If your attacker has the (ABILITY) the next question is does he/she have the opportunity? Is he/she within your immediate proximaty? Are you in the effective range of his/her weapon's? In law enforcement there is what is commonly known as the 21 foot rule. Whereby, for example if an individual is aggressively moving towards a police officer with knife in hand showing intent to cause harm and moves within approximately 21 feet deadly force can be utilized.

Imminent Jeapordy:

Did the attacker make definate, unmistakable indications whether by words or actions of his/her intentions to kill or seriously injure you. And these threats are immediate in nature. Or are the threats lacking definite form or vague. Do you wait until there is absolute knowledge that the threat is real? After all (INTENT) is subjective! And ones' intent to commit bodily harm on you does not ncecessarily need to be apparent to have imminent jeapordy present.

PRECLUSION:

Were all the other options precluded? Did you use deadly force as a last resort? Self restraint plays a key roll in how reasonable your actions were. Depending on the state that you reside in (PRECLUSION) is considered as a componant of self-defense while others have a mandatory retreat law.

So there is a great deal that one needs to consider when dealing within any situation where force on many levels is to be undertaken. And split second thought processes are put into play and our risk exposure can increase accordingly.

I do live by this old adage:
I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.

Sorry for the long rant. I thought about this for quite awhile before I posted and I am looking forward to your comments.[/quote]

Great Post! It's unfortunate, but from my experiences many FMA instructors dont focus on the legal consequences of the use of the blade. I mean let's face it...any idiot can cut you up...but, a FMA?!!! Come on...we are talking about Walking Sushi. As you mentioned carrying a blade is a personal process, which too many students take lightly. I decided long ago(15 yrs), I would carry a knife, and although I've had several "incidents" it's never escalated to where I felt my life was danger. Also since I carry a knife I have every intention of using it to the fullest extent once it's deployed. To me, carrying a knife is like carrying a condom. Better to have it and not have to use it, then to need it and not have it(boy, I hope my wife doesn't read this...it's a lot easier to explain why I carry a knife than explaining why I would carry a condom?!!! Dooh?!!!) Just my 2-1/2 cents(adjusted dollars).

Anthony

PS So, franci1911 are you going to tell us how many knifes you carry and what positions?!!! >=P

[Mchief]

Fighting empty-handed also might cause death accidentally.

No martial art should be performed irresponsibly.

True words! For me I always carry a blade because you never know when your finger nails get dirty. And who wants dirty fingernails.

[Baddmojo]

I carry a weapon all the time. It's my mind. That little quip being said, I have my CCW, carry a Glock 19, and my knives. I'm more of a knife guy (since I've trained in the FMA so long). I usually carry my custom small fixed blade by Ivan Campos (http://www.bladebazar.com/eindex.htm) on my strong side and a waved Spyderco Endura on my complimentary side. I usually carry a flashlight and some other "less than lethal" option as well. Designed for pakal grip:

Now, that's a nice knife...too bad...if you ever have an "incident" that becomes Exhibit "A" Good luck getting it back?!!!!

Anthony

[James]

Now, that's a nice knife...too bad...if you ever have an "incident" that becomes Exhibit "A" Good luck getting it back?!!!!

Anthony

Why? The blade is 2.5" long and it looks more like a gardening tool than a tactcial knife.

[Baddmojo]

Why? The blade is 2.5" long and it looks more like a gardening tool than a tactcial knife.

Well, if it's used in an altercation, I'm confident whether self-defense or not, the police will confiscate it as evidence. I'm not saying against you necessarily, but if it has any relevance to the case for either parties. How about the LO and attorneys out there speak up to verify this. As for myself, my knives are under $100 and if I had it my way I'd love to carry a Kerambit, but kind of hard to justify a Kerambit to cut boxes, since I'm a portfolio manager. Ideally, I'd love to carry Kukuri(sp). "Manage Risk?!!! Manage this...(doing my best Star Wars kid inpersonation)!

Anthony

PS I went to the link...but didn't find the knife...love to add that to my collection!

[James]

Any knife you use will be confiscated if you are in some kind of altercation involving the authorities. The custom knife pictured is not much more than $100. You can spend more on a production knife - I have. I want something that is 100% reliable, and I'm willing to pay for it. You get what you pay for. As for the link, try this:

http://www.ivancampos.net/egalcomp.htm

[Baddmojo]

aaah...beautiful my mouth is watering...I have to admit...it's getting harder to launder money into my knife collection...

[arnisador]

I have to admit...it's getting harder to launder money into my knife collection...


LOL! I know just what you mean.

[Pitboss 306]

Always one edged and preferably one impact weapon on my person.
I'd rather have them on me and not need them,
than need them and not have them on me.

Needless to say, I hate travelling on planes nowdays.

[franci1911]

FMA is for the most part are blade oriented combat fighting systems. So, if you are in the FMA I think the question should be:

Who doesn't carry a blade on a regular basis?

All these pictures of blades look really great, but the question is how well do they work in your hand? You can carry a blade your whole life, move it around til doomsday in practice. But do you practice from the draw under the stress of attack? I guarantee, without that practice when and if the time comes you are likely get hurt in the process. It's not enough to carry and practice the knife technique but also the deployment of the blade is critical.

Baddmojo, I'm not telling!

I have been in FMA for over a 30 year span of time and in martial arts as a whole for over 45 years you figure it out!

[arnisador]

But do you practice from the draw under the stress of attack? I guarantee, without that practice when and if the time comes you are likely get hurt in the process. It's not enough to carry and practice the knife technique but also the deployment of the blade is critical.

In my experience, very few people spend the time needed on this "boring" aspect of knifework. They like playing with the cool techniques. Give them a trainer to draw and there's a good chance they'll fumble it on the open in a stressful situation. Time and again I hear "I was attacked and I never even had time to draw my blade" from people.

I myself am guilty of not practicing my draw as often as I should, but I do practice it some. Theink how often LEOs practice darwing their weapons...they know what they're doing!

[franci1911]

In my experience, very few people spend the time needed on this "boring" aspect of knifework. They like playing with the cool techniques. Give them a trainer to draw and there's a good chance they'll fumble it on the open in a stressful situation. Time and again I hear "I was attacked and I never even had time to draw my blade" from people.

I myself am guilty of not practicing my draw as often as I should, but I do practice it some. Theink how often LEOs practice darwing their weapons...they know what they're doing!

Arnisador, Thank you for your comments! I work with many LEOs they certainly do practice from the draw a lot and under tactical stress situations. Of course that isn't all LEOs many don't see the need thinking that they will never be in a situation that necessitates that kind of time in practice. My .025 cents

[James]

We practice drawing under duress today. It's a real eye opener if you haven't done it before. We'll be doing more of it from now on.

[viejo]

I was reading all the posts here and I thing I wrote also saying that I dont carry a knife but a dulo....
I was asking me and I just want to know from all the guys here that carry a knife with them, "are u mentally prepared to used the knife" to slash someone and see how the blood is coming out or more than blood??
Do you ever ask u that question?
And please dont give an answer like "do you prefer to see ur blood running out"....
thanks and regards

Viejo

[Sabre]

I also carry a blade everyday. It is also legal where I live to carry a collapsible steel baton, so I do. I carry a 26" collapsible baton and mostly my kershaw.

Viejo - to answer your question, yes I have asked myself that question. The answer is yes. I am mentally prepared to do anything required (including kill) to protect my family and myself.

[Baddmojo]

FMA is for the most part are blade oriented combat fighting systems. So, if you are in the FMA I think the question should be:

Who doesn't carry a blade on a regular basis?

Baddmojo, I'm not telling!

I have been in FMA for over a 30 year span of time and in martial arts as a whole for over 45 years you figure it out!

That's funny you mentioned that, because that's the first thing that came to my mind, when I first read the poll. I'm surprised that there are not more people who carry a knife(s) regularly, but I'm sure each state's laws dictate our habits. When I first started FMA, I actually felt guilty if I didn't carry a knife. I recall a seminar I attended in which the Guru was known to carry on average about 13 edged weapons. I thought to myself, "WOW that's a lot of weight to be walking around in."

I'm also surprised by the answers people are giving in which they carry both an edged weapon and an impact weapon. I guess I need to practice more Espada y Daga?!!!

As for knife positions, a 1st year FMA student could tell you the most probable places an individual would carry a knife. An advance student is not concerned with knife position, but with arm position.

Thanks for mentioning your age, I was starting to feel old(today was my birthday)...I was going to schedule my mid-life crisis, but my wife just got pregnant, so I'll have to postpone the crisis for another 18 years?!!!

Anthony

[viejo]

Viejo - to answer your question, yes I have asked myself that question. The answer is yes. I am mentally prepared to do anything required (including kill) to protect my family and myself.

The keyword here is "to protect my family"....I'm sure that with FMA or without FMA Parents will try to protect their kids and family by all cost....

[arnisador]

I'm also surprised by the answers people are giving in which they carry both an edged weapon and an impact weapon.

This is one of the things I like about Bram Frank's Gunting...even more than with most knives, it gives me both of those options in one tool.

Unfortunately, the other side of that coin is that it can be somewhat awkward to carry because of the shape (at least as I like to carry it, clipped in my front pants pocket).

[Sabre]

The keyword here is "to protect my family"....I'm sure that with FMA or without FMA Parents will try to protect their kids and family by all cost....

This is very true. With or without FMA, parents will do anything to protect their kids, well good parents that is. I feel that with FMA I have a "tool kit" always open and available to make me the most effective I can be in this regard.

[arnisador]

This is very true. With or without FMA, parents will do anything to protect their kids, well good parents that is. I feel that with FMA I have a "tool kit" always open and available to make me the most effective I can be in this regard.

This is one reason I taught it to my son...so he can protect not only himself, but one day, his family.

[Sabre]

This is one reason I taught it to my son...so he can protect not only himself, but one day, his family.

I am with you 100% Arnisador. I began training my son last year for this exactly same reason. I have a very mixed martial background and in time, I will pass everything I know to him.

I must say thou, I am most excited for the time to come when I can train my daughter. She is only 3 so I have a little to wait :D There is something about training your "little girl" to whoop some big goofy guy if the need arises. hehe

[franci1911]

This is one reason I taught it to my son...so he can protect not only himself, but one day, his family.

Very good words, but it goes beyond that. I'm not advocating that we should all become Crusaders. However, I look at myself as one who not only is here to protect myself, and my family but also the individual on the street that cannot protect himself. Moral fortitude is important and is a key ingrediant that you will also be teaching your children through your actions and behaviorisms as you give them the knowledge that you have acquired over the years.

[arnisador]

I must say thou, I am most excited for the time to come when I can train my daughter. She is only 3 so I have a little to wait :D There is something about training your "little girl" to whoop some big goofy guy if the need arises. hehe

I have a daughter and am about to start serious training with her! I know just what you mean. No dating until I'm convinced she can break a man's arm if the need should arise.

[Carol]

I have a daughter and am about to start serious training with her! I know just what you mean. No dating until I'm convinced she can break a man's arm if the need should arise.

Nice :D :D

[viejo]

I have a daughter and am about to start serious training with her! I know just what you mean. No dating until I'm convinced she can break a man's arm if the need should arise.
.....

I have also 2 daughters (6 and 9) and just one to ask here when how what are u going to teach them?

[PG Michael B]

My 11 year old step son started with me last year....I take him once a week to my class and he works out with the big boys...yepp I throw him right in the mix....my guys are patient with him and help him out. He has progressed faster than I had thought and enjoys mixing it up. He learns the syllabus A to Z like any adult student.

I usually don't teach kids (just not my thing) but when it is your own you gotta...I wouldn't think of sending him any where else..in San Antone we for the most part have a plethora of BS when it comes to martial arts...I think we have more Take Ones Doe schools per capita than anywhere in America..LOL...He is half Pilipino so by proxy (mamma says so) he has to train.

[arnisador]

I have also 2 daughters (6 and 9) and just one to ask here when how what are u going to teach them?

For both my son and now my daughter I made it a game until they were about 12, then started training them seriously, and when they turn 14 take them to a local JKD instructor I like who only accepts students 14+. I then continue to train them daily for brief sessions in Modern Arnis and my own take on self-defense, while they get to work with a larger group and under an instructor who is not their Dad at the school. I intend to start my daughter at the school next month. My son received his black belt in arnis this summer!

[Sabre]

The training for my son has been very much like what Arnisador has done. He is 13 now, I started training him seriously last year. But ever since he has been about 6 we have had a game of doing flow drills together. His sensitivity has increased tons, making his serious training flow easier. I will continue to train him until he is 18, at that time, he has been given an open invitation from my Muay Boran(old style)/Ledrit (thai military style) instructor to go and train. I plan to send him for a "visit" for a few months at 18.

My daughter is only 3, but her training will progress very much like her brothers.

[Sabre]

My son received his black belt in arnis this summer!

Congrats to your son Arnisador!!!!!! You must be very proud :)

[eric10]

Hey I do the same exact thing with my daughter. I teach her and do it as a game. I have to keep it simple, fun, and usually short.
http://www.orlandotcechapter5.50megs.com/images/youngblood.jpg

[arnisador]

That's great! We have pictures like that of me with the kids too.

[viejo]

NIce pic, looks like my youngest Daughter playing with me..hehe
thanks

[ap Oweyn]

Bah! You call that young? :D

http://excoboard.com/forums/7470/user/72864/162684.jpg

My daughter got a hold of my olisi when I was retaping them. As a responsible parent, my first response was obviously "where's the camera?!"

[viejo]

Bah! You call that young? :D

http://excoboard.com/forums/7470/user/72864/162684.jpg

My daughter got a hold of my olisi when I was retaping them. As a responsible parent, my first response was obviously "where's the camera?!"

wow 2 sticks......dont tell me u let her walk also on coconut shels...hehhe

[arnisador]

It's like a bo for her! Cute!

[eric10]

Excellent pic!

[ap Oweyn]

Thanks! :)

And an angle 8 to the knee (or perhaps shin in her case):

http://excoboard.com/forums/7470/user/72864/162683.jpg

[St. Bernard]

All right, let me throw my hat into the ring: I carry at least one blade with me at all times.

I am a police officer, and carry one of the following on my off-side: Boker Escrima Fighting Dagger, Fairbairn Sykes Covert Dagger, or TDI fixed blade.

When I'm off duty, I don't always feel like lugging my gun around, but the blades are always with me. If I only have one, I'm always looking for on-site acquisition.

As far as the people who don't carry one, I can respect that you have moral concerns about not wanting to. The reality is, I live in a world where people may try to disarm me and murder me and keep me from going home to see the Lady Demon and Baby Demons. That is not going to happen. I'll blueworm you, him, and both your mama's to keep that from happening. Count on it.

A good forum, Carol. Very interesting.

Now somebody PLEASE show me how to use a wedding ring in self defense.

[Cuts and Bruises]

There have been very few days since I was 6 years old and my Grand Dad gave me my first hardware store jack knife, that I have been without a blade.

My Dear Wife has nicknamed me, "Mr Prickly" in reference to the varied type, quantity and location of my carry collection. Even in situations where sharp steel is illegal, court-houses, commercial aircraft etc, I have found ways to make sure that there is something on my person that will fit right into my FMA training. (Let your mind run wild... yeah, I've thought of that too... :))

I actually prefer a knife to a firearm, as it allows fot the escalation of force; it's really tough to shoot someone "just a little bit", while it's not any more difficult to choose a target for a knife than it is to pick a spot to hit with a jab or a cross. One of my favorite carry knives is an old pre-wave CQC-7. Makes a wicked-mean olisi-palad and if things get a tad hairy, well... 'nuff said.

[arnisador]

an old pre-wave CQC-7

The wave version is pretty cool. I've never owned one of my own, though--just played with one of Mr. Hartman's wave knives.

[Cuts and Bruises]

I have a waved mini Commander and love it. So much in fact that I reground the back of my Endura to open the hole up into my bastardized version of the wave. It actually works BETTER! (Sorry Mr Emerson, but it's true!!)

[Cuts and Bruises]

I have a waved mini Commander and love it. So much in fact that I reground the back of my Endura to open the hole up into my bastardized version of the wave. It actually works BETTER! (Sorry Mr Emerson, but it's true!!) I'll have more waved Emersons if I ever get lucky in Vegas!

[Captain Tom]

I usually have a Swiss Army knife with me, that's about it.

[scubamatt]

Hello, I'm still very new to the forums (and even newer to the FMA), so forgive me if I insult anyone, I do not mean to do so. I am not a policeman, I am an Army veteran, so my point of view is somewhat different than many who have posted here. This thread started with 'do you carry a blade' and kind of wandered off track, but it touched on a lot of important things I want to comment on. I apologize in advance for rambling...

I carry a lockblade folder, sold by Winchester, that is modeled after an old Gerber utility folder. It is made for one handed opening, and and is serrated along half of the main cutting edge. It is about 5 inches long, with a 4 1/2 inch blade, and has a pocket clip on one side.

I got the knife as a gift 15 years ago or so, and it's always clipped inside the front right pocket of my pants (the 3" belt clip is clearly exposed, so I am not carrying 'concealed', in legal terms). I use it every day at work and around the house. The only time I don't have it on my person is when I travel by air, or when I am doing something formal (suit & tie at dinner, etc). When it finally wears down beyond the point of function, I believe I will be hard pressed to find another as good.

I have carried and used this particular knife for 15 years, to the point where I sometimes forget it isn't an extension of my hand. If I try to open a box or something at work and it gives me trouble, I automatically draw/open/cut/close/replace and move on to the next task, usually without conscious thought.

A sharp knife is a tool. Defending yourself (or another) is just another part of your job (as a husband, father, friend, soldier, cop, etc). A knife is as useful as any other tool (under the right conditions), and like any other tool, if you need it and don't have it, the job may not get done.

Unarmed combat skills (FMA or otherwise) are also a tool, and have the very significant advantage of being something you cannot 'forget to load, forget to carry, or have removed from your person'.

I prefer to have both, at all times, because sometimes it takes more than one tool to get the job done properly.

In regards to the poster who was wondering whether or not you can actually 'follow through' and stab or slash someone with your knife: psychologically, piercing another's body with a blade is one of the hardest things to do. That is why handguns are used much more often to kill than knives, even though the vast majority of lethal shootings occur at a range of 7 feet or less (which is easily within threat range for a blade, and blades are far easier to obtain than guns).

Mentally, it is easier to pull a trigger and BANG your opponent is magically bleeding or dying, than it is to take a blade and shove it into your opponents vital areas. To be stabbed in a vital area is a horrible thing, and it takes conditioning to be able to do it to someone else. The Army spends a lot of time and effort trying to condition its soldiers to overcome this natural resistance. Bayonet drills on dummies, sparring with pugil sticks, and aggression reflex response behavior. This is also why most martial arts practice drills and sparring - its not just the physical skill they are building up, but your mental attitude. You learn to react reflexively (before conscious and logical thought process) which saves time and allows you to bypass your normal aversion to the task at hand.

I think that if you train regularly with a weapon (any weapon, from your body to a bayonet), and you train realistically (full speed, full contact, etc) you will not ever have trouble using the tools you have at hand to get the job done properly. The fact that you may ocassionally wonder if you're up to the job merely means you are still human. Just keep training, and you will be fine if it ever comes to it.

Legally, there is very little distinction between being a trained martial artist and simply using a knife, should you actually injure or kill someone. In the eyes of the law (in most areas) having professional training in unarmed combat makes you at least as deadly as an untrained individual carrying a blade. In fact, attorneys will attempt to use your certification as a practioner of a martial art against you! My point is that merely choosing to use your hands and feet in serious combat is not going to provide you any sort of 'edge' in the legal aftermath of a deadly fight. (I apologize for the pun, too.) The lawyers will point at you - and your certificates of training, your T-shirts and patches, and say "This person is a professionally trained, concealed weapon system that walks around loose in society".

All of the legal criteria for deadly force (detailed rather well previously in this thread) apply to a 'black belt' as much as a guy who uses a kitchen knife in a fight. Every situation is different, but legally what counts most is whether or not there was a 'clear and imminent threat to human life'. You can kill someone who is going to kill you (defense of life), but you can't kill someone who is trying to take your bicycle (defense of property).

What differs is the psychological aspect of fighting presented by these two different kinds of people.

Now, if you happen to be unarmed, there is not much visible deterrent for the bicycle mugger. Whether or not you are highly trained, you look like Joe Average Cyclist, and he decides he can out muscle you for the bike.

If you happen to be wearing a karate uniform or something that says 'I know karate' in some fashion, he may reconsider. It's a deterrent of sorts. Thanks to movies and such, he may have a mental picture of what will happen when he tries to take away Bruce Lee's bicycle. On the other hand, he may not - some guys have really strange ideas about martial artists, and psuedo martial arts fashion is everywhere these days. Maybe you are just a poser, wearing stuff cause you want people to think you are tough.

Having a knife visibly equipped is also a deterrent, and perhaps even stronger than the martial arts uniform (etc). From movies and usually from personal experience as well, everyone has a good idea of what a cut looks and feels like, and nobody enjoys being cut. People may wear kung fu shirts as a fashion statement, but knives are not a fashion statement (except at FMA conventions :coolyello ). That guy's kung fu shirt won't hurt me if he's a poser, but that knife can hurt me whether or not he knows what he's doing.

Now consider the thinking of our bike thief: "Even if this bicyclist has no idea how to use that knife, I could get cut bad trying to take the bike. If he knows how to use the knife, I'm definitely gonna get cut bad, maybe die. That bike ain't worth it."

I feel that if I am carrying a blade (legally and visibly), I am providing a deterrent to bad behavior. I'm not carrying a katana or wearing anything that an attorney could point to as 'aggressive' or 'looking for a fight', but anyone who takes a moment to look at me sees a reasonably fit male, with an obviously well used blade. They've really got to want a serious fight to make the next move - and if they do, I have a couple of tools handy for the job.

All in all, I believe in carrying a blade, and do. It's a controlled, variable lethality tool that I happen to be comfortable with, and it is useful to me in everyday (noncombat) situations. I also believe in training without weapons, and with sticks. Sticks, or things like sticks, are easily found almost anywhere. This is why I have come looking for training in FMA, in fact.

[pguinto]

Sequence from Tarantino's Grindhouse segment "Death Proof":

Kim: Look, i don't know what futuristic Utopia you live in, but the world i live in, a b!%ch need a gun

Abernathy: You cant get around the fact that people who carry guns, tend to get shot more than people who dont

Kim: And you cant get around the fact that if i go down to the laundry room in my building at midnight enough times, i might get my a$$ raped

Lee: Dont do your laundry at midnight

Kim: F@%k that, im gonna do my laundry whenever the f@%k i wanna do my laundry

Abernathy: There are other things you can carry other than a gun...pepper spray

Kim: What the? Mf'er try to rape me, i dont wanna give him a skin rash. i wanna shut that (N-word) down

Abernathy: How about a knife at least

Kim: Yeah, you know what happens to mf'ers that carry knives... They get SHOT!!!

[DEFONDO]

A sharp edge is, simply, a tool. Carrying his tools discreetly, the true artist understands the necessity of both restraint and commitment in choosing how to deploy them. Remember that the bell cannot be unrung but, also, sometimes there really is a fire!

[Kali Cowboy]

I carry both Knife and Gun. I am licensed for conceal and carry.

God Bless,
Stephen

[R. Mike Snow]

The only time I carry a blade is when I go for walks late at night up North of my house where the more heavily wooded areas and indian moundsare located.

I just started carrying blades last summer when I noticed the coyotes getting closer every night. Then watching them surround me on all four sides. I don't think they ever will, but just in case....... I want to at least giv'em a good fight. I am not about to give up my meditatingly beautiful starlit nights, that I use to wind down and clear my mind. Just because of a half dozen coyotes. So I made my own pak-sak knives, one for each hand.

I don't carry a knife in public because with all of the uneducated wannabe gangsters around here, I know I would end up having to use it. I would much rather they stab them selves with their own knife. In the terrifying struggle of course...... : )

Open for better suggestion too, Mike

[Saint Willie]

I generally cary a blade, but did even before starting with FMA, as a general purpose tool. As a NYC resident, the blade has to be single edged, folding and under 4in. I use on of the leatherman knives, not the multi tool, but the knife, although it does have a bit driver and a bottle opener. Great tool to have at your side, and it doesn'r say "commano slayer" on it anywhere LOL

[Dagadiablo]

I used to...

Then i discovered the expandable baton...

I always knew about it, but never "played" with it. In reality, it makes more sense. Think about it, aside from the legal ramifications of hurting someone with a knife, you can effectively maintain a Largo range. As for knife, I've "been there and done that" your SLASH won't do **** and your stab puts you too close to one person--extremely dangerous with multiple atackers!

Also, submissions are much easier to control a situation with a "stick" than a blade. A court of law will also be easier on your situation of crippling someone as opposed to killing someone! But remember, depending on where you hit!!!

[arnisador]

In a lot of places collapsible batons are as legally restricted as knives though--isn't that so?

[Dagadiablo]

Oooh, good point! I'll definitely need to research my local jurisdiction!

[KaliGman]

Actually, in many jurisdictions the baton, such as an ASP, is classed as a club and the carry of clubs, or the concealed carry (jurisdictions differ) is often banned outright. Often, in these same jurisdictions, knives are legal to carry, though blade length, opening mechanism (auto or switchblade and balisong are often prohibited), and other characteristics of the knife are regulated. State regulations throughout the United States vary quite a bit, and local ordinances have an affect to--as an example New York City has prohibitions that exceed those of the state laws of New York. Always check your local and state codes. Where I currently reside, there is a restriction on blade length for knives that are carried concealed. If you decide to get a "concealed carry permit" note that in many jurisdictions, this only covers handguns and you can still be in violation for carrying an ASP. This is a bit silly, but, it is the law in many states.

As a federal law enforcement officer, I routinely carry a knife or two and a handgun. I have three ASP batons and they see a lot of carry.

[adam t babb]

I always have a blade on me or two if i am in the field up to 4 or 5. like kali cowboy i to carry a gun as well nice thing about having a conceled carry permit. and i use the knives at work as well.

[Kailat]

I just bought a new KA-BAR TDI knife yesteday I love this blade.. I don't know why.. but im sure I'll be carrying this one pretty reguarly..

I also finally broke down and bought me a new OFFICIAL KaBar utility knife.. WWII style leather handle. I used to have one many years ago, but lost it.. I decided it was probably the best knife I've ever owned...So I decided to buy another one.. like $55 for it.. Overall prolly the last 2 knives I'll ever have to buy again..

I figure with the world becoming more and more of a crazier place to live, I mays well have on hand a good H2H combat blade. And nothing better than a good Ka Bar to fight your way outta the trenches with..

[adam t babb]

nothen like a good k-bar

[silat1]

A kabar is good, but there's nothing like a good randall. I still have a Kabar that was issued to me back before I went overseas the first time.. It served me well, but after taking some chips out of the blade while in the field, I figured it would be better for me to start carrying knives I had made in the Philippines.. They were easier to sharpen and to replace if they broke.. I bought a randall knife for my son who is active duty and has deployed to some of the hot spots of the world.. Basically following in my footsteps by going and doing when necessary, but that is part of being in the military..

[Hertao]

I used to...

Then i discovered the expandable baton...

I always knew about it, but never "played" with it. In reality, it makes more sense. Think about it, aside from the legal ramifications of hurting someone with a knife, you can effectively maintain a Largo range. As for knife, I've "been there and done that" your SLASH won't do **** and your stab puts you too close to one person--extremely dangerous with multiple atackers!

Also, submissions are much easier to control a situation with a "stick" than a blade. A court of law will also be easier on your situation of crippling someone as opposed to killing someone! But remember, depending on where you hit!!!

I completely agree with you. I've got a blog post linking to this poll along with a detailed discussion leading to the better properties of an expandable baton here:

http://www.hertao.com/blog/knife-for-self-defense/

There are too many downsides to carrying a knife, and better alternatives in my view.

David

[KaliGman]

I completely agree with you. I've got a blog post linking to this poll along with a detailed discussion leading to the better properties of an expandable baton here:

http://www.hertao.com/blog/knife-for-self-defense/

There are too many downsides to carrying a knife, and better alternatives in my view.

David

Interesting opinion, and you have some valid points. In Louisiana, you will probably be well served by an ASP baton or similar device in many situations. Please keep in mind that more states in the United States have laws similar to your neighbor, Texas, where such a baton cannot be carried legally on your person, rather than the somewhat liberal carry law I understand applies in Louisiana. A knife can be carried on your person in Texas (the blade length limit is under 5 1/2 inches). On your blog you mention some legal problems with a knife--those legal problems will be a lot worse if you smack someone with a weapon that is illegal, such as an illegally concealed club. You state that it is problematic in using a knife in a "less lethal" role. A folding knife can be used as a kubotan or palm stick when in the closed position, and with practice and experience, to deanimate limbs (as explained and practiced by Bram Frank and Michael Janich, as well as in many arts and by many practitioners found here). Cutting someone may be frowned on by a jury more than hitting with a baton. However, in most situations and jurisdictions in the U.S., you had better be able to articulate why you felt threatened with imminent serious injury or death if you have cause to use either weapon to defend yourself. As for knife versus club stopping power, well--after 16 years of law enforcement I have seen batons fail to have affect, I have seen metal batons bend or break rather than drop an offender, I have seen knifing victims keep moving as well, and I have seen people keep fighting after being shot (one guy ran over a hundred yards after being shot two times in the chest with 230 grain .45 ACP rounds). Absent decapitation, there is no guarantee of combat ending. You keep moving and fighting until the attacker is no longer attacking.

I, too, like a baton and I have several, including an agency issued model that is on my tactical belt rig I used in SWAT. I also carry firearms every day. I bring a knife along too. The knife is both tool and weapon (if need be). It is another option.

Just my opinion. As they say, your mileage may vary. A baton is a good self-defense tool. I highly recommend a good flashlight as well (it can be used to help you defend yourself in many ways, including blinding an attacker at night, and will be very useful for many mundane tasks). Now if I can just keep my kids from burning out all my batteries while trying to play with my various Surefire lights....

[Hertao]

Great points KaliGman. Nothing is for sure, and it is all debatable. Although I've never had to use my baton on anyone, I have heard from police I've taught that sometimes they work and sometimes they don't...but the same goes for everything.

I wonder if bones were targeted (shins and knees), if there would be a higher success rate. I know that most police are taught to hit "meaty" areas. I can't imagine a good evasive triangular step with a simultaneous blow to the shin/knee would allow for easy walking/running after. It seems to me that it would be easy to break a shin this way.

STOPPING someone with a knife, mechanically, would require more nastiness in my opinion, and a higher likely hood of death,

David

[Tikirocker]

Do I carry a blade on a regular basis ... no, not usually. In Australia I have had occasion to work in remote area's of the Northern Territory out near Jabiru and when out that way I have carried a knife for survival purposes rather than tactical.

As for what type of blades I like and what would I choose as an all rounder for both survival and tactical it would have to be some blades made for Spetznaz Russian Spec Forces by Kizlyar - they have reps here and I first came across them at a gun show a few years back.

If only for general survival it would be the DV1 - this was designed in concert with Russian Spec Forces and Kizlyar.

http://www.kizlyar.ru/gif/catalog/noji_ohotn/dv-2.jpg

This would be my choice for tactical ... Korshun

http://www.kizlyar.ru/gif/catalog/noji_ohotn/elastron/korshun.jpg

Ontario also have a couple of blades I really love too.

[arnisador]

STOPPING someone with a knife, mechanically, would require more nastiness in my opinion, and a higher likely hood of death,

Here's a thread along these lines:
Knives and Stopping Power. (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=411)

[KaliGman]

Great points KaliGman. Nothing is for sure, and it is all debatable. Although I've never had to use my baton on anyone, I have heard from police I've taught that sometimes they work and sometimes they don't...but the same goes for everything.

I wonder if bones were targeted (shins and knees), if there would be a higher success rate. I know that most police are taught to hit "meaty" areas. I can't imagine a good evasive triangular step with a simultaneous blow to the shin/knee would allow for easy walking/running after. It seems to me that it would be easy to break a shin this way.

STOPPING someone with a knife, mechanically, would require more nastiness in my opinion, and a higher likely hood of death,

David


David,

We are both agreed that nothing can be guaranteed to work all the time:). The shin is actually a "green zone" on many law enforcement striking templates for batons. Usually, the bony areas do get quite a bit more "reaction" than the fleshy areas. Of course, with the proper training and power (or just brute strength--I've seen a 330 pound 6 foot 5 inch cop swing a baton I would not want to stand in front of!) a strike to muscle and nerve clusters can often do wonders. Of course, sometimes stuff happens that is interesting. A full bore, body behind the swing, hit to a guy's shin by a police officer I know once involved the guy just saying "Don't do that again," in a conversational voice with absolutely no other reaction. Since he kept fighting, he was hit again and was arrested.

For anyone who is interested, here is a link to a chart produced by Monadnock (a manufacturer of many police batons) which details striking zones:

http://www.lamperdlesslethal.com/news/upload/Monadnock%20trauma%20chart.pdf

The green striking zones depicted are those that most law enforcement agency administrators consider most "legally defensible." As I have said before to my students, be able to articulate why you were in danger of immediate, serious bodily harm or death and you can strike quite a bit more freely (as in red zones and all the nasty little anatomical points we have all learned to smack repeatedly when bad guys do stupid things).

Sorry if this is a bit off the "knife topic." Arnisador, I'll start another thread on batons if you wish.

Jon

[adam t babb]

lets see i carry a gun i carry a couple of knives now i need a asp

[arnisador]

Heh, sounds like you need more hands!

[adam t babb]

i forgot the pepper spray and taser !!

[Brock]

Man, you're either a LEO or Batman!

[5tirosCamarin]

I carry a cheap folder. I have carried knives off and on ever since my brother was stabbed out in front of the Midtown (a bar) in Emporium. Before I got the folder I carried a $20 balisong, but I lost that one in one of my many moves around State College. The folder was its replacement and it's never out of my pocket. I didn't always carry the balisong because I wasn't sure if it was a legal carry. Now I've found out that they are, so I want to get a new one.

I'm confident enough that I can kick some ass without a weapon, however if an attacker has a knife I'd like to have one too. My folder is big enough closed to have a punyo, so opening it wouldn't even be absolutely necessary. A metal punyo hurts plenty.

[Shaun]

I carry a cheap folder. I have carried knives off and on ever since my brother was stabbed out in front of the Midtown (a bar) in Emporium. Before I got the folder I carried a $20 balisong, but I lost that one in one of my many moves around State College. The folder was its replacement and it's never out of my pocket. I didn't always carry the balisong because I wasn't sure if it was a legal carry. Now I've found out that they are, so I want to get a new one.

I'm confident enough that I can kick some ass without a weapon, however if an attacker has a knife I'd like to have one too. My folder is big enough closed to have a punyo, so opening it wouldn't even be absolutely necessary. A metal punyo hurts plenty.

Balisongs are great.I have picked up some really nice ones in Manila,although it is not something the system I train in is generally associated with.
I agree with you that the punyo on many folders is a great initial strike weapon.I use a carabao horn palm stick,which is very formidable as a striking weapon.
Yep,if someone pulls a blade on me I would feel a weapon is essential,or highly desired in order to end the confrontation.I would also try to get away from the attacker if at all possible,i.e. leg it.

[silat1]

Man, you're either a LEO or Batman!

He can't be Batman, no reference to the Batarangs or to the Batmobile yet.. I am a LEO and even I don't carry batarangs, although sometimes our patrol units get decked out with equipment that would envy the Batmobile..:apc:

[Brock]

Balisongs are great.I have picked up some really nice ones in Manila,although it is not something the system I train in is generally associated with.

A few years back GM Pallen said he was developing a balisong curriculum. He was showing some stuff to a couple of us during a break at a seminar in Philly, but I haven't seen or heard anything about it since.

[kabaroan]

Picked up a new daily carry tool...Chris Reeves Sebenza (L)...wooo hooo!

[5tirosCamarin]

Balisongs are great.I have picked up some really nice ones in Manila,although it is not something the system I train in is generally associated with.
I agree with you that the punyo on many folders is a great initial strike weapon.I use a carabao horn palm stick,which is very formidable as a striking weapon.
Yep,if someone pulls a blade on me I would feel a weapon is essential,or highly desired in order to end the confrontation.I would also try to get away from the attacker if at all possible,i.e. leg it.

Yeah, a knife fight wouldn't be a whole lot of fun, and it would definitely be pretty low on my list of things to do. I really don't like the idea of bleeding, especially not bleeding to death...

But, if I were cornered or otherwise couldn't get away without lethal force, my knife would be out and I'd make sure to survive by whatever means necessary. I really hope that never happens, though. Actually, my brother was apparently very calm when he got stabbed. He wrestled the guy to the ground and held him there til the ambulence and police got there. I don't know how he didn't lose his cool! You should see the scar across his chest; the guy had the knife icepick grip and stuck it right into my bro's heart plate and raked it across.

[5tirosCamarin]

A few years back GM Pallen said he was developing a balisong curriculum. He was showing some stuff to a couple of us during a break at a seminar in Philly, but I haven't seen or heard anything about it since.

I'm sure it'd be fairly easy to adapt our concepts to the balisong. It's a knife you can twirl! Well, it's a bit different from twirling a stick or long knife, but you know what I mean. The potential for freestyle and overwhelming with counter attack after counter attack are there. I'd really like to get GMP's input on it. I believe he'd call it a "Lihok?"

[Brock]

You're thinking of the kerambit. The balisong is the "butterfly knife".

[Damien Alexander]

I used to love the Balisong.
I still do,but god frikken forbid if you carry one in the UK.

Back in high school, I was the first kid to have a butterfly knife....
WAY back in the 80's!

But one thing I learned was;when someone else had one,and he pulled it out on me, of course you got all the "amazing" twirling when they opened it....
Thats when I hit him :coolyello

[Brian R. VanCise]

Balisong knives are fun to play with but god forbid you ever used one as there reputation is not very good. Still they are fun to work with. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[PG Michael B]

I know how to work a balisong but I just don't care for them. In my practical mindset all I need to do is flip it open once and have at it, no need for twirls, spins, flips , etcetc...simple and effective is more my way.

Give me a good old K-Bar any day of the week.

[Shaun]

I believe Batangas is home of the balisong.
Often car axels are used to make them,in the Philippines.

[5tirosCamarin]

I used to love the Balisong.
I still do,but god frikken forbid if you carry one in the UK.

Back in high school, I was the first kid to have a butterfly knife....
WAY back in the 80's!

But one thing I learned was;when someone else had one,and he pulled it out on me, of course you got all the "amazing" twirling when they opened it....
Thats when I hit him :coolyello

Haha this very scenario happens in the newest Punisher movie, the one from like 2005 or 2006.

[5tirosCamarin]

You're thinking of the kerambit. The balisong is the "butterfly knife".

Oops! I'm still learning all the names and alternate names for the multitudes of different knives in FMA.....

I know balisong is "butterfly knife." That's what I've been talking about. I was just confused about "lihok" as I thought it was another name for balisong. Now that you've corrected me, I realize that I'm an idiot and the balisong knife is named after Barrio Balisong, in Batangas, Philippines.

[5tirosCamarin]

I believe Batangas is home of the balisong.
Often car axels are used to make them,in the Philippines.

Car axels? Really? How?

[tellner]

I believe Batangas is home of the balisong.

Actually, Europe is probably the home of the butterfly knife. Knives like that were popular centuries ago. The smart money bets that they traveled to the PI with or slightly after the conquerors. Locals picked up the design and ran with it.

[silat1]

I believe Batangas is home of the balisong.
Often car axels are used to make them,in the Philippines.


FYI, they are primarily made from leaf springs from various trucks and cars that have met the great salvage pile in the sky.. Car axles have a higher tensile strength and would take a serious forging and hammering to get them down into billets the size where they could be shaped into the balisong blade blanks.

[Kailat]

After last night, I have to question why do we carry blades? Self Defense Purposes, Industrial reasons, because its cool and makes us feel superior?

Well, today after an incident last night I have to re ask myself WHY DO I CARRY A BLADE? less than 24 hrs ago I would answer this question "For Self Defense"... But when that moment comes can u, will u use it? Can u live w/ yourself the next day? Would you think to yourself there are several other things you could use instead of a knife or knives to defend yourself? What if its all you have?

I'll tell u what, right now! TODAY! Im not sure I will carry a blade on my person again in public. Because I had almost used mine in a self defense situation and I realized it was too convenient to go for it w/out thought. Pure instinct to pull it out and use it w/out really thinking of the outcome.. I think in many cases there are far more reasons why not to carry a knife than why to carry one... It's like the old saying goes. U pull out a weapon you had better be prepared to use it and take on all responsibilities for your actions.. I realize today that our govt wants us to live in a constant state of fear and to be slaves to our society.

We are being primmed as slaves where self defense is not an option. Slavery to our society where the thugs, and criminals will over run our streets and where the common citizen is in fear of going downtown, or going to an establishment for enjoyment without fear of becoming a victim of our society and the bad guys.. so its easier for us to sit at home hoping we will be safe.. but once u step outside and are outside you are at the weakness of your government and the very laws that were made to protect you and in one intance u are the victim and the law sees you as the problem...

For so long I have seen the law from one side... From the eyes of the govt. How they wanted me to see it.. It is not until you yourself are put in a position and realize rather quickly that the laws that are meant to protect u in fact are against you.

[el maldito de cebu]

its case to case basis but if its needed in your job then its usefull. well since our job is in the fighting system we must protect ourselves at all cost, we cant predict when treatchery strikes from a rivalry by any mistakes.

[geezer]

Well, today after an incident last night I have to re ask myself WHY DO I CARRY A BLADE?

Im not sure I will carry a blade on my person again in public. Because I had almost used mine in a self defense situation and I realized it was too convenient to go for it w/out thought...

We are being primmed as slaves where self defense is not an option... It is not until you yourself are put in a position and realize rather quickly that the laws that are meant to protect u in fact are against you.

OK, I've posted on this before, so I apologize in advance for repeating myself. But in the context of today's world, the knife is a poor choice of weapon for self defense.

First off, knives don't offer you a range of options or "continuum of force". If it doesn't work as a deterrent, then you are commited to use it , and likely with lethal consequenses. Luckily for you, Corey, It did deter those jerks.

Secondly, if it is necessary to resort to lethal force, a knife is pretty much "taboo" in our society. It is stereotyped as the weapon of assassins and thugs. Firearms are relatively more acceptable, at least where I live. I personally know one individual who shot and killed an intruder in "self defense" and not prosecuted. Another case appeared recently in our local paper where a teenager fought off a burglar with a baseball bat. Both were hailed in the press as crime-fighting heroes. Had either guy knifed the intruder to death, I don't think the story would have ended the same way at all!

Finally, Using knife involves very close range combat and has a whole set of risks ranging from getting injured yourself, to contracting incurable blood-born diseases such as hepatitis B and C, and HIV.

Considering these and other factors, knives are seriously problematic for self-defense. Honestly, there has got to be a better solution besides giving up and living, "as slaves where self defense is not an option". Any suggestions?

[PG Michael B]

Cory, do not take this the wrong way brother. You said in the original post about this incident that you were enjoying a few drinks. Do you believe that the few drinks might have altered you slightly in judgement? If so do you feel being 100% sober would have led you to the same physical conclusions? The reason I ask is simple. Alcohol impairs everyone who drinks it, especially if you had, as you say a few....I have fallen pray to that as well when I was a drinker. I truly believe that the decisions we make under alcohol duress may not always be the logical conclusion, rather a placebo of sorts for the time continuum we have just found ourself in. Ask yourself how you would have handled the situation if you were 100% sober. Then start carrying your blade again. The blade is harmless it is the man and the decision which renders it lethal! With respects bro, from a friend.

Mike

[kaligirl]

I carry a knife on a daily basis. As a woman I believe in having all the advantages I can get in the self-defense category. Since I am not one to pick a fight If I was involved in a self-defense situation my life would very likely be at risk....ie carjacking, attempted rape etc..... so i feel justified in carrying an extra measure of protection. A gun is impractical to carry around on my daily errands and is often verboten in many places I frequent.....a University, banks, etc... but I do own a firearm and would rely on it for home defense.

[Kailat]

Mike B.

Hey, just read this tonite after getting home from work. To answer your question, I say half and half. I will take blame on both parts as if I was drinking a "few" beers (4) to be exact in an 5 hour time frame.. So was I drunk? Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't.. I wasn't near, nor did I take a PBT so as we all know .08 is legally intoxicted.

But I will admit I was slightly buzzed, but if there was any intoxication I was stone sober after the event.. LMAO!!

But seriously, and NO i didn't take any offense to your question or post. But sure i'll agree possibly the fact I was drinking had something to do w/ it.. However, would I have done the same thing sober or had not had any drinks that evening.. Honestly, YES I think it's a good possiblity I would of.. Id be damned if Im gonna play super man in a dark parking lot against 2 grown men... trained, skilled or not.. Im gonna go down the road of protect all around me..

I have not stoped carrying a blade.. I just limited how many ; )

I seriously and whole honestly feel I grabbed for my knife for a couple of reasons!

A) instinctive response: Always training w knives, and by being trained to rely on a side arm by carrying it on my side w/ my PT job.. knowing that when a threat arrives go for the equalizer... I seriously feel it was a direct response of trained response...

[KaliGman]

OK, I've posted on this before, so I apologize in advance for repeating myself. But in the context of today's world, the knife is a poor choice of weapon for self defense.

Interesting perspective, Geezer. I actually disagree. I consider the knife a viable weapon for self defense, as is a firearm, a stick, and others. Some of these items are better than others, but what works best often depends on the specific situation (environment and range, opponent's and armament, etc.) rather than a "firearm is always better" or other some such ranking system.


First off, knives don't offer you a range of options or "continuum of force". If it doesn't work as a deterrent, then you are commited to use it , and likely with lethal consequenses.
Many knives can be used very effectively as palm sticks. In particular, Bram Frank's Lapu Lapu and Gunting series of folding knives are excellent in this regard. Guro Bram has a very well integrated and thought out system designed around using the knife as non-lethal (or "less than lethal" in the current law enforcement vernacular) tool and escalating to lethal if necessary and appropriate. Having the ability to use the "sliding scale" of response options on the force continuum so beloved of law enforcement administrators is a nice option to have. Albo Kali Silat also does a lot of work with a closed folding knife used as a striking tool, joint and nerve point manipulation tool, etc. A lot of these types of techniques can be accomplished with a small flashlight if you choose not to carry a knife, but you can't do the whole "Gunting syllabus" without a Gunting or Lapu Lapu, and you can't cut with a flashlight.



Secondly, if it is necessary to resort to lethal force, a knife is pretty much "taboo" in our society. It is stereotyped as the weapon of assassins and thugs. Firearms are relatively more acceptable, at least where I live. I personally know one individual who shot and killed an intruder in "self defense" and not prosecuted. Another case appeared recently in our local paper where a teenager fought off a burglar with a baseball bat. Both were hailed in the press as crime-fighting heroes. Had either guy knifed the intruder to death, I don't think the story would have ended the same way at all!
I have only worked in Phoenix a time or two on a TDY basis in my federal law enforcement career, so am no expert in the politics and "law enforcement mind set" of the area. However, I have interacted with Arizona law enforcement on various levels throughout the years. I also have been around the block a time or two in regard to working shootings, stabbings, and other malicious woundings/felonious assaults. In general, the weapon really does not matter that much in my experience. The key to any self defense situation is articulation. A legitimate use of a knife in self-defense has been treated the same as a legitimate use of a firearm, or a brick, stone, or stick for that matter. If you can articulate why you were in fear of your life or of serious bodily harm, then you can use a tool to save your life and safeguard your person. It does help if you are a pillar of the community. A known "gang banger" or career felon is going to be scrutinized and/or disbelieved no matter what tool he uses to defend himself, even if it is empty hands and he is fighting multiple opponents (unless, of course, they are other known offenders). As for the items you see in the paper regarding self-defense, for every mention in the paper I can recall when I was working housing projects as a municipal police officer, there were dozens listed in police incident reports. I lost count. long ago, of the incidents of self defense I encountered in my duties where no one was prosecuted. A slow news day, a chance to advance a treasured political opinion, or a particular "human interest" angle seemed to be what triggered a lot of news media attention when it came to self-defense issues. Stuff like a Boy Scout using a scout knife to fight off a rapid pit bull and save 30 nuns from contracting rabies or an outlaw biker attacking a gay pride parade with a switchblade and getting beat to death with rainbow banners would always make the press. The knife may be more vilified in the press in Arizona. In my experience, the tool did not matter as much as the defense. If the press was of the "you should smile and take it because any violence is always wrong" political persuasion, you were going to be painted as a demonic douchebag regardless of whether you used a knife, a toothpick, or an Uzi.


Finally, Using knife involves very close range combat and has a whole set of risks ranging from getting injured yourself, to contracting incurable blood-born diseases such as hepatitis B and C, and HIV.
Using a stick can give you a bit greater range. Using empty hands will mean you may be a bit closer in than you would be with a knife. In a real life-or-death struggle, regardless of whether you use a knife, a stick, a firearm, or empty hands, my experience is that blood is probably going to flow. It takes only a tiny open cut or a bit of blood encountering your mucus membranes, entering your nose or mouth, to enable you to contract some of the blood borne pathogens of which you speak. Training and experience indicate that HIV and many of the other diseases are very fragile once they leave the body and that you often don't contract anything, even if blood contact is made. I have had to arrest known AIDs carriers who were combative and resisting arrest. It is not a fun experience, but it is not an instant death sentence either. You can get the same kind of "blood exposure" or contact when hitting an opponent with a baton, when punching and grappling, etc. Speaking of grappling, though I never personally met a law enforcement officer who contracted AIDS or hepatitis from a knife wound, I do know of a fine SWAT officer who retired after contracting hepatitis from a used hypodermic needle that was on the floor of a crack house and punctured his knee when he went to the ground.


Considering these and other factors, knives are seriously problematic for self-defense. Honestly, there has got to be a better solution besides giving up and living, "as slaves where self defense is not an option". Any suggestions?
I have taught and/or recommended the use of the "tactical flashlight", OC (pepper spray), the baton, the knife, and various firearms for self-defense and law enforcement purposes. I have never used TASERs, but they have their place, along with all of the other tools mentioned. Knives are carried by many FMA trained people in the United States due to the fact that they are trained in stick and knife. A nice, concealable baton, such as an ASP, is mostly not an option for people to carry, except for law enforcement officers. Carrying a baton or other "stick" concealed is "illegally carrying and concealing a club" in a great many U.S. states. Carrying one openly is banned in some states ("carrying a club"), and will get you a few raised eyebrows and perhaps an interview with a nice law enforcement officer in other states where it is legal. Carrying a folding knife, for the most part, is legal in the various states (blade length allowed varies, and you can't carry in courts, other government buildings, etc.).

In my opinion, the knife is a viable self-defense option, with proper training. So are many other tools. Choose what works for you. As for me, my knives are weapons, tools, "pocket jewelry" (I love a well constructed knife, and enjoy them every bit as much as my pilot friends enjoy their exquisitely crafted Breitling chronographs), and teaching implements. I have an MP-5 submachine gun in my vehicle. Tomorrow I will strap on a Glock 21 .45 ACP with an attached Surefire flashlight, and back it up with a couple of spare magazines full of hollowpoints. I will have a 21 inch ASP baton with me. I will also carry a couple of knives. The knives are a viable option if things go really, really, bad. They are part of my GTHP (Go to Hell Plan--for when things go to hell and nothing is working my way). They also are useful tools. Using a .45 caliber Glock to open 300 boxes of evidence so you can prepare for prosecution of an investigation is rather noisy. I'd rather use a Spyderco Military or Emerson CQC-7, and know that, if necessary, they can both do more than open boxes.

Of course--just my thoughts--your mileage my vary.

[5tirosCamarin]

OK, I've posted on this before, so I apologize in advance for repeating myself. But in the context of today's world, the knife is a poor choice of weapon for self defense.

First off, knives don't offer you a range of options or "continuum of force". If it doesn't work as a deterrent, then you are commited to use it , and likely with lethal consequenses. Luckily for you, Corey, It did deter those jerks.

Secondly, if it is necessary to resort to lethal force, a knife is pretty much "taboo" in our society. It is stereotyped as the weapon of assassins and thugs. Firearms are relatively more acceptable, at least where I live. I personally know one individual who shot and killed an intruder in "self defense" and not prosecuted. Another case appeared recently in our local paper where a teenager fought off a burglar with a baseball bat. Both were hailed in the press as crime-fighting heroes. Had either guy knifed the intruder to death, I don't think the story would have ended the same way at all!

Finally, Using knife involves very close range combat and has a whole set of risks ranging from getting injured yourself, to contracting incurable blood-born diseases such as hepatitis B and C, and HIV.

Considering these and other factors, knives are seriously problematic for self-defense. Honestly, there has got to be a better solution besides giving up and living, "as slaves where self defense is not an option". Any suggestions?

One thing that training in FMA gives us (well, depending on the art) is at least a basic look at the physiological aspects of fighting with a knife. Slice the inside of the arm, damage nerves and muscles that control squeezing motions with the hand. Slice the outside, damage nerves and muscles that allow the opponent to open his hand. We are taught several points which, when cut, are bleed-out-points.

So, depending on the art, FMA practitioners know how to kill almost instantly (within a couple seconds, at least) with a knife. That doesn't mean that an FMA guy will automatically go for a kill in self defense, however. I think knowing these things can make self defense with a knife safer, because the trained knife fighter not only knows how to kill, but also knows how NOT to kill. You can still neutralize the situation without bleeding out your attacker if you avoid vital areas, go for slashes rather than thrusts, and even pull your slashes a little so they're not as likely to do irreparable damage.

As for suggestions other than a knife for self defense, DRAC on martialtalk.com showed some things with a Protek Key. It's basically a hard plastic or maybe even graphite elongated key that you can use to make a pressure point pretty much anywhere just by jabbing it into somebody. It's very good for compliance take-downs and reinforcing joint locks. As far as that goes, you could just use your keys or a sharp dulo dulo of some sort. How bout a pencil/pen? Speaking of keys, mine have a loop on them big enough that I can make a kerambit out of them. I know I can't slash with my keys, but I can whip you in the eyes with them and then grip them i.e. icepick grip and grind them into your clavicle. Nonlethal, but painful as F**K.

[geezer]

In my opinion, the knife is a viable self-defense option, with proper training. So are many other tools. Choose what works for you. As for me, my knives are weapons, tools, "pocket jewelry"...

Of course--just my thoughts--your mileage my vary.

Wow, that was a great response...really thorough. My grandad was a rancher. He used to say "A man is never without a knife." And that went for the women up at the ranch too. So I grew up thinking of knives as an indespensable tool you carried everywhere. I just wouldn't favor one for self defense...except as a last resort. I thought your comments about using a folder as a palm stick were right on the mark. I guess I'd personally be more comfortable with a club (large flashlight, wrench, hammer, bat, golf club, steering-wheel lock, pool cue, or what have you) since I think I might hesitate too much before being willing to stab someone. Or maybe not. I've never "been there" and will do what I can to avoid that kind of situation. You LEOs don't have that luxury I guess.

[chubbybutdangerous]

:bow:Yeah, I most definitely carry a knife on a regular basis. It's a tool.. a tool that can be used as a means of defense if necessary. It's an all around tool for survival should I get stuck in the middle of nowhere. I carry a folder but when I find a good fixed blade that will fill all my requirements for carry I will probably change to that. I feel incomplete without one.

Like anything else I have close to me, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I can't remember how many times I've been out in the desert and someone had need of a knife. As far as self defense use.. people need to train their mind/mentality as well as their body.

No one wants to use any weapon to hurt someone else needlessly. But as a former marine, I am more than ready to take anyone out if need be. What if you have a loved one with you while in a situation. If my babygirl (whose in college) or my son (who's a US Marine) were relying on me (ok, my son wouldn't) for safety, there is no way in hell I would hesitate in using a knife or any other weapon of opportunity to cause an attacker to become incapacitated for the next several moments.

Train mind and body for an assault. Know your situation and surroundings. Train to be aware. Train to make decisions under duress, and hopefully you'll be able to avoid a situation. And I hope we all have a "button or switch" to turn on the agressive side when the need arises.
:whip:

Respectfully,
Chubbybutdangerous

[adam t babb]

i am to poor to be batman

[bentit]

yes, i can't afford to get my ccw permit yet. A 3" folding knife is better than nothing

[equilibrium]

I carry steel every day even if just around the house, have a blade by the bed, by the computer and in the shower. If I expected trouble, I would have multiple handguns and a rifle or shotgun close were ever I was besides an airport.

For me this survival thing is like, you either do it or you don't and if you are going to do it, do it right. I am surprised some other FMA people don't think that way.

And someone said empty hands were enough. This is ridiculous. I can take Mike Tyson out with weapons, no problem.

[AZEskrimador]

I'm not one for carrying a fixed blade but folders often come in handy in every day life. A folder can, not only, open packages, cut ties or boxes but can also be good in an emergency situation, such as breaking a window in an emergency or cutting off a seat belt in clench.
I don't carry a blade with intent to use in a self defense situation.
There might be those quick draw artists of us out there who can draw that knife in a flash but dependence on a weapon can sometimes make one hesitate or reach for the weapon first in the presence of an immediate threat.

A Portion of My Opinion... Please take it for what it's worth to you.

Stay Safe All

[Pat OMalley]

Actually, Europe is probably the home of the butterfly knife. Knives like that were popular centuries ago. The smart money bets that they traveled to the PI with or slightly after the conquerors. Locals picked up the design and ran with it.The patent for the original so called butterfly knife is in the UK Patent Office and dated to the mid to late 1800's, it was originally invented for those sailors who worked in the Cannon / Powder Room, the folding handle was made of brass because brass does not give a spark and hence the blade (mainly for cutting the wick to the cannon) would be protected in the brass handle.

So it was probably brought to the region by British Sailors and quickly adopted and adapted by our Pinoy Brothers as it was no longer required in the Cannon / Powder Room from the early 1900's as the automatic cannon and the use of encased shells where becoming more common. And remember many Pinoy's of that time where sailors so they would have come across that particular knife on more than one occassion and may well have taken it on for themselves.

Many in the Philippines know the blade as the Batangas Knife.

Best regards

Pat

[Pat OMalley]

In my younger days I was, well lets say a bit of a naughty boy and I used to carry several blades and was quite prone to showing them when the need arose, but as I got older and more sensible I no longer feel the need to carry any blade at all.

Yes I have one on me every day, working in the construction industry I have a nice little knife that has a folder at one end and a box cutter at the other, and they flic out quite easily with a twitch of the thumb, but I use that for work and when I finish it goes into the tool box till next time.

Do I carry any weapons? Well if you search me as a Lawman, no I dont, but then again if you have a mind to, anything can become a weapon.

If feel confident enough now that I dont need it on me all the time, after all 99% of the population are not out to get me, and for those unlucky individuals who do try, so far I have been lucky in that I am nastier than they are when the need arises and I am surrounded by weapons in my every day life, no matter where I am.

That is the wonderfull thing about FMA, no matter where I am, I know I can put my hand on a weapon if the need arises as I know that from my training and my own personal expeariance in life, anything I want to be a weapon will become one.

Best regards

Pat

[lameco_alex]

I carry a blade all the time, folder blades of course, I own a benchmade Griptilian and a Cold steel Recon 1, they are my favorites for every day!
I carry the blades for self protection, don´t forget that knives are wonderful tools too!

[PG Michael B]

I have been carrying lock blades for years. I have started switching over to carrying straight blades...in a lower back rig.....I know some frown upon this but it is a damn comfortable carry...and it is a warm, tingly feeling knowing your backed up with a solid, stream lined, gleaming piece of steel! Sharpened to a fine hone., that can rip through the flesh and still cleave bone.....ahhhh....arrrrghhhhh...here she be lads..this is me back rig carryhttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll140/redscorpion6/RS6%20USA/sentinelpics002.jpg

REDSCORPION SIX SENTINEL....from my buddy Aaron....


checkem out...

www.redscorpionsix.com (http://www.redscorpionsix.com)

[geezer]

....arrrrghhhhh...here she be lads..this is me back rig...

Aha! Michael, So you are a pirate... or at least have barely concealed pirate tendencies. Anyway, nice blade.

[PG Michael B]

Aha! Michael, So you are a pirate... or at least have barely concealed pirate tendencies. Anyway, nice blade.

I've been called worse things....lol....but yeah pirate works..lol...boy does it ever!!! ;) .. I've always lived life with one foot in the bad lands

[Shaun]

No,I do not carry a blade on a regular basis. In the UK,it is illegal to carry a locking or fixed blade, unfortunately.
If it were not illegal,most definitely I would.
I often have a walking stick with me however when I am out and about.

[allanyoung_24]

I always carry one. I work on a night shift.

[LegendLoLo]

I don't. Some districts here on the Philippines are banned of carrying deadly weapons Specially MALLS.

I say proper training. Good Coordination.

The only thing that comes in handy for me is a PILOT ballpoint Pen that i once used =)

[SomethingClever]

I don't. But i carry my sticks everywhere. I'm thinking of getting an ASP (or two) just so people don't look at me weird while i walk around with my sticks in their case, slung around my shoulder.

[LegendLoLo]

Well again i reply I don't. But sometimes i carry a miniature knife keychain on my backpack or a stick with an easy open Billiard pool case